I can't tell yet if this is a sci-fi show; if it is we can move the topic there. I figure at least a few of us will be watching, so I'm starting this now to talk about the Con panel I attended.

First thing's first - Eliza Dushku. She is apparently Joss's muse for this in a particularly specific way. Both of them compared her to the character multiple times; apparently she has identity issues and goes on crazy adventures all the time, so this show is Joss's way of creating a vehicle that taps into her life in a fictional manner. Not sure how I feel about that, honestly. Watching Joss with her in that panel, he seemed way to enamored. He was practically sweating. Being inspired is one thing, but a kid with a crush does not necessarily make the most compelling TV.

To be fair, she does wield her sexuality, and maybe part of that is being young. She and Tahmot were flirting like middle-schoolers, and there was a whole conversation that stemmed from a conventioner asking Tahmoh if her spine glows that made me feel down-right uncomfortable. The whole thing went beyond chemistry and just got to be a little too personal. Perhaps they are just acting; if so the show should be great, because they were damn convincing.

Check out this video for a little of what I'm trying to describe. It makes me feel like a schoolmarm, or that character in "Grease" who makes the dancing couples stand a ruler's length apart.

All that aside, I enjoyed listening to Joss talk about this, and about how the "Dolls" of this show are similar to the vampires of his other shows - they are all less than human, and Echo, like Spike and Angel, is just searching for a soul, or the meaning of a soul. He's much more poetic than I am, and it was nice. I missed the actual footage, so I can't say what the show looks like, but he talked a bit about wanting it to be fast-paced and that it would use the city of L.A. in a way I don't think he's ever used a real location before. He and Tahmoh also talked about being inspired by a book called, I think, "Never Leave Me", but none of the books I've found on Amazon by that title seem germane so I may have mis-heard. Anyone have any idea what book they might be referring to?

That does sound quite creepy. And it also makes me wonder how much this could have fed into the creation and development of Faith, too.

Your link doesn't work, though, Ananda.

He seems to fall in love with all his actors/characters. It certainly didn't go well when it was Amber Benson. But here I'd argue that the object of his affections is worthy of the screen time.



I don't think anyone else on the planet does it the way she does. Every action is permeated with sexuality... Which is fascinating, in a clinical way: Like, how can a person be that confident?



Doesn't he remember how Angel used L.A.? It was a character in the show.

I guess I'm the one who forgot about Angel - I don't know though, it never felt real to me. Maybe that's because I haven't spent much time there, but it never felt integral to the show, the way that, say Burn Notice has to be in Miami, or even CSI in Vegas. Could just be all the vampires, tho

I don't remember specifically how Joss acted around Amber or any of his other actresses, but I feel like this is different. There's a weirdness here that you could feel in a room packed with 5000 people. If I was his wife, I would not be inviting Eliza over for dinner, I guess is what I'm saying.

I'll try to fix the link tomorrow.

Los Angeles was everywhere in Angel... the skyscrapers, the glitter, the cars and the streets, the dark alleys. And vice-versa: When I first moved here, all I could see was Angel, everywhere I looked. I still do, sometimes. The downtown skyline will never signify anything else to me.

And the Griffith Observatory ...


Yikes.

She's not that young, though - I mean, 28 is young, but not usually young enough to still have the boundless self-confidence of the beautiful and privileged teenager. So it's probably just an attribute of hers - though, good for her if so. I mean, at least she's owning it and not doing that faux-innocence sexy thing (like Jessica Simpson or someone) which is so irritating.

Anyway, I think Dollhouse will be sci-fi, since clearly there isn't the technology yet to reprogramme people's minds completely with a set of skills/personality. I'm hoping they play with the idea of how much ALL of our personalities are moulded, they're not so different.

True, I think of Angel at the Observatory too.



Yes, it seems genuine. I think in this day and age it's unusual to find someone that unselfconscious about it. She's like Mae West, only perhaps in that case it was a little more of an image.



There's Scientology.

Ha! True.

Scientology...show set in L.A....I think ejg has just figured out the secret behind Dollhouse. No need to watch now.

Maybe the whole show is really a pointed allegory? Sponsored by that guy who stands on a street corner holding up anti-Scientology signs all day?

I get the feeling that Dushku is a person dripping with pheromones, and it affects the people around her, which, in turn, she plays off of in a flirty way. It's interesting to watch, but I can't help but think that kind of effect come from some kind of childhood-based desire to be loved more than she thinks she deserves. Or something.

When I met her she was kind of hyper and very friendly - down to earth even. There were some fun conversations about MA and her hometown, which one of my coworkers is from as well. I don't think that I got any kind of sexualized vibe from her - but maybe I'm oblivious. I mean yeah, she's definitely hot, but I guess I didn't really get a sense of anything weird going on. Heh.

A clip from the first episode of Dollhouse. Let's just say it doesn't inspire a lot of optimism. But, I imagine Firefly watched out of context might seem stilted and weird, so I'm obviously still going to give it a chance. However, geeky-Xander guy? You are no Xander. Cut it out with that.

Aw, that's Fran Kranz, who I know and like. But it is a tough part.

Could be good, could be bad. Hard to say based on the clip.

I thought he was funny in The TV Set. I guess it's just a Joss standby character. Maybe if Nicholas Brendan were getting more work and didn't have to live in my memory as a one-eyed freak with a string of dead girlfriends I wouldn't feel so bitterly towards this dude with his two eyes and relatively unoffensive wardrobe.

Oh dear, he reminds me more of Andrew. Which is not good.

The dialogue is a bit clunky. Presumably if these people work there every day they're not constantly discussing the very premise of the work every day.

Come on, I always start my workday with, "Hello, my boss who oversees me in this office in which we both work. Shall I start on X and Y duties which form my job?"



Ha! Point taken.

Heh. I've grown oddly affectionate towards super-expositionary dialogue like that, possibly as a coping mechanism. My favorite is when two detectives, FBI agents, etc., who've presumably driven to a crime scene together, discuss research that they did hours ago five seconds before taking action. Wouldn't they have gone over their plan before arriving? Who knows.

So, I'll assume no one was blown away by this? It wasn't very blowy, I must say, but it was actually a lot better than I expected it to be (my expectations were in the toilet). Not sure if Dushku has the chops to carry this thing week after week, but the supporting cast is intriguing, and it did look very pretty. Now if they can just quit it with everyone talking at half tempo whenever Echo is in the room. I get that she's a blank slate, but does being around her erase everyone else's brains as well?

Did anyone else watch?

I gave it a go, but found it reaaaaallllly slow and dull. My instinctive reaction was that it seemed very old-fashioned, but I think actually it's that it's a Fox show and these days I'm more used to watching stuff on the cable channels which just seem more sophisticated. It's sad, really, because Whedon seems to have lost his spark. And Dushku seems to have forgotten how to act, or maybe she never really could but just fitted that one role.

I like Olivia Williams a lot but it doesn't seem like she'll have much to do here.

As I told my buddy last night, I'm gonna hold off for four or five episodes, because Whedon shows tend to grow into place, rather than explode all at once like jj abrams seems to. (Lost still has the most perfect pilot I think I've ever seen)

I'm waiting for the day when I can believe any of Joss's original female characters in other roles. I spent the whole episode reminding myself that it wasn't Faith and Fred in a different environment, and I have to do the same alot for Alyson on HIMYM.

Otherwise, I'm a sucka and will watch it until the bitter end, it takes A LOT for me to give up on a TV show. Which is why I'm still watching Survivor 18 seasons on. And Heroes.

Eh, I don't get that. If it doesn't hook me by the next episode, I'll be out of there - and if a show bores me, I'll quite happily ditch it. I have little loyalty to TV shows.

I do think Welcome to the Hellmouth kicked things off nicely, as did City Of.

Well, I gave it another go, but really, it's a dud, isn't it? And kind of unpleasant, to boot. Obviously destined for early cancellation.

I enjoyed the second one (about 65% of that was Matt Keeslar), but I'm in it for the season, at least, so maybe I'm giving it more slack than you.

What did you like about it, Ananda? The only things I have liked about it so far are that Olivia Williams is in it - because I really like her, though she's not had much to do - and the relationship between Echo and her handler, which was kind of interesting. Nothing else is working for me, especially the premise, which so far hasn't risen above creepy and yucky.
Actually my least favourite thing about it is the incidental music, which is really off-putting.

I guess I'm not taking the premise very seriously, because it doesn't bother me as much as, I suppose, it should. I find the sort of "plausible deniability" thing Olivia Williams has going on kind of interesting - Caroline is a volunteer, although she was obviously choosing between awful and terrible. But just as a show concept, I like that they can play around with different genres every week. I also like Lennix as the handler, and Acker, and I find the idea of Alpha really intriguing. I don't see it ever becoming obsession-television, but I find it perfectly diverting as a Saturday afternoon, empty-out-the-TIVO show. I hear it's supposed to kick into gear around episode 6.

There's really only two things I don't like: Topher, who is painfully written and portrayed, and the scenes of the Actives when they are, err, Inactive. The decision to play them as dumb children with advanced motor skills is just weird and doesn't make any sort of sense to me. But those scenes seem to be few, so I don't care that much.

I see what you're saying and I think the premise could potentially have been interesting for me - especially if it really was a different genre every week. But the pace and dialogue are so boring so far. And you're dead right about the weird tone of the inactive Actives. They come across as so challenged that it's unpleasant to watch people being mean to them, plus Dushku can't really carry it off. "Did I fall asleep?" is already old.

I'm gonna side with Pandrea on this. I broke down and watched both episodes after the Hulu commercial on FX, and I have to say, "Meh."

I get where they're going, with Alpha and Echo and Agathon and I just can't really care. Plus, NO ONE makes the Middleman a villain. Even in the Palindrome AU he was an anti-hero. Keep your mitts off my Milky!

Well, it's not a show I'm going to make much of an effort to defend. Assuming it lasts the season, I'll reassess and see if there's room on my TIVO. At this point, it would be second or third to the chopping block, if I decide to trim my season passes.

I have to say that if among a group of people who at one time were huge Whedon fans, all the support it can muster is two 'hell no's, one 'okay' and otherwise nothing ... it may not last the season.

Yeah, bodes ill. On the other hand, that might be Fox's meddling and Joss second guessing himself. Or he's lost his groove, Dr Horrible excepted.

AV Club interviewed Eliza about Dollhouse. Pretty standard stuff, but I thought this was interesting, and, who knows, she could even be right:



She's a lot easier to take seriously when you can't see her or hear her.

I finally watched the first two episodes. I can't really say I feel anything about it right now. Every year it seems like a show with a pretty interesting premise comes out, has talented people attached to it - and then a scared network comes along and is all "but every episode has to be accessible!!" and somehow it gets turned into...meh. Sometimes not getting everything right away and up front is what makes things interesting, people! Weave me a nice story, don't just staple a bunch of events together with mush. I suppose that's just a rant-laden way to say that neither episode was very attention grabbing, and a lot of the "Lets explain everything thoroughly!!" stuff just comes off badly. And wow, I really do not like that Topher kid at all. Someone should punch him in his smarmy mouth.

I'll probably watch up to episode 6 or so, at some point, to give it a shot. But likely it'll be because I didn't have anything better to do and the weather is crappy.

I don't get the fear the networks seem to have of novelization, especially considering the popularity of Lost. Plenty of your better shows reward weekly viewing, even if the plots are self-contained (30 Rock, The Office - both are full of callbacks and in-jokes). Once upon a time, it was difficult to get into a novel-style show if you missed the first few episodes - you had to wait for reruns. I'm not sure if anyone has told the networks yet, but that's not the case anymore. Hulu and its less-legal equivalents mean anyone can watch practically any episode of any show that they want, at any time. Give them a reason to get caught up, and they will.

That said, it's possible this show doesn't deserve my righteous indignation. I hope it will be worthy, though, as I have crushes on Sierra and Victor, and would like them to stick around.

I think the changing paradigms in television, particularly the creative/critical dominance of cable, will end that fear in the near future. I think we're going to see American mainstream television shift toward a European/Mexican dynamic of shorter seasons with more coherence. Not that I'll mind much, since that's the storytelling I prefer.

I don't know if I have the patience to wait for three more episodes to see this nonsense gell. That singer storyline was painful. Although the parade of gorgeous women takes the sting out of it a little.

I wonder if they're going to go with a Logan's Run kind of paranoia for a while, or if the Actives are going to take over before long. I think that's ultimately where this will go, Echo and the others seizing control and operating the Dollhouse on their own terms. (Eventually)

Did anyone else feel like Helo (I can't even bother to learn names) was actually Alpha during that ridiculous ambush? C'mon, at least Fox Mulder wasn't Chuck Norris. This guy is too much.

Oh, and I personally like the moony neighbor best of everyone so far. I'm certain she's either a plant or will end up one. Which is why Victor was actually a surprise for me. Do you think he was set up as a source to mislead Helo? Or was he kidnapped and programed as a way to manipulate him? I guess I'm engaged after all if I have all these thoughts.

Still... I'm only in it for the abs. The ridiculously sculpted abs.

Okay, please tell me I wasn't the only one who thought that the hotel that Victor sent the FBI dude to was the same exterior as the Hyperion?

You're not - I had the exact same thought. It made me sad - it was all run down without Angel and Co. to care for it and brood within its walls.

Oh, good, I’m finally caught up to where you all are. Haven’t watched the fourth episode, but no one’s commented since it aired.

Did Alpha kill Caroline’s parents in the first episode? Was he originally someone from Caroline’s past?

Clearly it’s not the nuanced, heavily populated wonder that Angel and Buffy were. It might be all right for the type of show it is, though it can be flat at times. They did start to play with the idea of identity in the episode “The Target,” albeit with too much time-jumping.

All I could think of that bow-hunting guy was that he was a Swedish exchange student (who did turn out to be a murderer underneath the nice-guy façade).

It was interesting when I thought that the Dollhouse had intentionally rented Echo out to be hunted; I thought that’s what the boss lady’s conversation and extra fee were all about.

The relationship with the handler is kind of affecting… because you think, does he now feel that he’s participating in slavery, want to free Echo from what is essentially a sex trafficking ring?

I’m surprised by how much it’s about Dushku and only her. I didn’t think the other Actives would be glorified extras.

I get the sense that Caroline and the others were entrapped/cornered into making the “choice” to become Actives.



I actually like the childlike quality. It makes for creepiness and I think is the primary reason the identity issues are interesting. Plus it functions as part of the set design.

I agree with Pandrea that they aren’t really doing assorted genres with each episode. They should be changing the music, tone and visual style to suit each one. Instead, it’s uniform from episode to episode. The one time a series should feel schizophrenic…

Likewise, Dushku isn’t sufficiently differentiating the different characters. Doesn’t seem like she has the range of, say, Alexis Denisof.

The dialogue can be leaden (particularly in the third episode). But it is clever that they’re naming all the Actives after military alphabet code, and managing to have it work — Alpha, Echo, Sierra, Victor. I guess that means Alpha was the first one created (hadn’t worked the kinks out?), and Echo was the fifth.

Don’t think it was the same building as the Hyperion, though I had that thought too… maybe they shot a similar one. Or could be they’re saving money and just CGIed the courtyard out of an old Angel establishing shot. (They wouldn’t, would they?)



Ha! Good point.

I liked Victor turning out to be an Active. A specially programmed red herring… interestingly, they seem to be wiping him and then re-imprinting him with the same Russian mafia persona whenever needed. I guess it wouldn’t do to have him sitting around in a room somewhere, waiting and eating borscht.

Not necessarily...there's a line, possibly in the most recent episode where someone asks what happened to the "last Sierra". So they reuse the names when an Active 'graduates' (it's unclear if the last Sierra died, was released, or...other).

Oh, that's right. Too bad... it would have made sense for the first Active to be the one who was most screwed up, and then for Echo, who was still early on in the production line, to start having flaws like memory.

The scene where she interacts with Sierra at the Dollhouse at the end of the third episode was interesting. So in her resting state, Echo knows that she knows Sierra, and also knows enough to know that she and Sierra shouldn't acknowledge each other. That suggests a whole lot of consciousness... does it mean that Echo is completely faking her innocent-state and is essentially Caroline now? Does she want to escape?

Watched the fourth episode. Echo trapped in the vault reminded me uncannily of Buffy-in-Faith... aw. Strange how much Dushku can mirror Sarah Michelle Gellar.

Imprinting the same personality (Taffy) on two different Actives was a mildly neat twist.

That was definitely a better episode. The best thing I can say about it was that I had a sudden flitting thought that it reminded me of the Angel episode "Happy Anniversary"... and a second later the Internet guy said, "Happy anniversary." Creepy.

Strangely enough, the one twist I didn't see coming was Echo returning to complete her assignment as the guy's wife. That ending was a sweet little dream.

I felt like there was something up with the milquetoast neighbor girl. So I was surprised when it seemed like she was just going to die... though not displeased. The only bad thing about her being an Active is that now we have to endure more of her boring personality. (I guess she and the series might get more interesting in the next episode, based on the teaser.)

I'm not particularly drawn to the FBI agent, though he's certainly better than she is. When I was watching the fight scene in the kitchen between him and Echo — the series' first real Buffy-style fight scene — I realized you weren't rooting for either character. I don't think that's some failure in getting me engaged in them. The characters or the stakes just aren't very defined or strong.

I thought there was a slight possibility that the Head Lady had intentionally programmed Echo to pretend there was a conspiracy, thus persuading FBI Guy to lie down and behave the way they wanted him to. But given the dramatic needs of a scripted show, it's more likely that there is actually a mole and a conspiracy. It was cool to use an Active like that, to unwittingly carry a message like a big leather-clad carrier pigeon.

Of course the logical suspect for mole is Echo's handler, but I'm thinking it might be Topher's little assistant instead. She's the last one they'd suspect, and she has the best access to and understanding of his equipment. I guess maybe Amy Acker is a third possibility.

I think, as a television episode, it was better (although maybe not as mind-blowingly awesome as Joss and Eliza have been telling us it would be). But on a visceral level, I did not like it. I was spoiled by IMDB to Mellie being an Active, and, unlike you, she's the only character I really feel anything for (maybe Echo's handler, too, a little). Possibly I'm over-relating, but knowing that nothing she's feeling is real or matters one iota just grossed me out. I guess it makes it ok (in show terms) that she is clearly just a stop on Ballard's way to Echo, since she's not a real person and he'll find that out eventually, but it made me very uncomfortable. The Sierra storyline was suitably upsetting, and I suppose there was poetry in the way he went out. Olivia Williams has been knocking it out of the park, and I like that I really don't know if she is, at her core, a good person or a bad person. Taking the focus off Echo was nice, and Patton Oswalt was dependably entertaining. You will also never find me without something good to say about an episode that has Tahmoh shirtless and needing tending to.

I do not feel more drawn into the show, though, and if it ends after 13, I can live with that, at this point.

Just wanted to post this funny little tidbit, from Alan Sepinwall's blog:



You know, even when Joss aggravates or frustrate me, I think I continue to stick around because I really feel he has a sense for entertainment and the ability to view things from the fan perspective. Basically, he's a big geek and I will probably always come back for that.

Yes, harm a Doll, killed by a Doll. They're not always defenseless.

Recently, I found myself liking Whedon for this (from this interview):

Well, it's important to keep your sense of humor.

I liked that he wasn't just killed by a doll, but that he was killed in the act of rape by a woman he assumed (like Sierra), to be defenseless. It's not a female empowerment moment, since Mellie is really just a conveniently placed weapon, but it still tasted right.

(However, I wonder how wise it was - Paul is obviously going to investigate, even if he assumes the attack to be random. He's jobless, what else does he have to do? Adelle must be very confident that the handler cannot be traced back to the Dollhouse.)

"Porn!"

I'm gonna side with Ananda on this and say I'm just not engaged. Yeah, there's a little forward momentum, finally some kind of meta architecture to hang things on- but still...

Honestly, who didn't know the neighbor was an Active. Seriously. No. Seriously? From her very first scene I figured she was, and I thought I was supposed to think she was. Which is why I was pleasantly surprised at the attack, cause I know Joss likes to kill pretty young innocents to be shocking. So the re-reversal fell flat for me.

The idea of there being 20 Dollhouses makes a hell of a lot more sense, how could you actually cater to all those many, many billionaires in the world just from LA? I know they'll travel for a good time, but Dubai to LA is a long flight, even in a G5.

I'm gonna call out Topher as the mole. Maybe I just hope he's not as souless as he seems, but whatever. The assistant is a likely choice, which is why I doubt it's here. I do kinda like her, in that appealing, Pepper Potts long suffering aide way.

That was a cute moment. This series doesn't do much comedy.

I didn't know the neighbor was necessarily an Active, but I knew there was something else to her. I thought she might be a spy with a pro- or anti-Dollhouse agenda. When she seemed so interested in the Internet billionaire, I thought maybe she was connected to him personally... but that wouldn't make much sense for the series' overall arc.

Topher would be the most unlikely mole. He's so committed to the project, more than anyone else, really. And I think he's either immoral or untroubled by the moral implications. I don't think it's him.

Perfect cover. Remember Echo mentions that fantasy is Dollhouses business but not purpose. It's entirely possible his enthusiasm for the technology doesn't jibe with what he found out about their endgame. Like I said, I think I'm just hoping he's not souless.

As for humor- God there needs to more of that. This show is SO dour, even it's attempts at levity are grave. Granted, when you're dealing with queasy subject matter like sex crimes, consent issues and human trafficking, humor's a tough sell- but, that's why you need it.

I think the funniest moment of the series so far was actually the interview with the guy 'suggesting' a guy on guy Active encounter. Genuine humor, delivered well.

I'm starting to be more interested in the show. I just caught up on the last 3 episodes in a row and was fairly engaged in the last one. I'll stick it out for some more episodes, but it's definitely not yet something I feel committed to.

Echo definitely seems to be becoming more aware every episode in her doll-state. I was even more creeped out by Topher in this episode. How am I supposed to believe that someone who can so callously just program someone to go out and do whatever bidding they're asked to do, can't say the word erection? That fell pretty flat for me.