I despise Christmas.

People assume that because I'm blond and white I must be Christian, and I must celebrate Christmas. I hate the carols, the advertising, the blatantly religious nativity scenes in people's yards, everything. The thing I like is having the day off.

Is it just me?

I don't mind the decorations on people's homes and yards because it's their religion, they can display that stuff if they want much as we can all display American flags if we want to, and I can put my menorah in my window.  But the crass commercialism gets my goat, as does the "All Americans are Christian, didn't you know?" attitude.  I can understand why it's a legal holiday, but it bugs me that it's considered an American holiday.

I don't so much mind the thing itself, although I always find Christmas Day deadly boring, as the fact that by the time it arrives, I am so sick and tired of the whole thing.  The shops and the decorations and the bloody Christmas music - the same cheesy pop songs every year - have been around since October.  I don't understand how that doesn't drive people crazy and completely put them off the whole notion.  I just try and avoid it as much as possible till about a week beforehand.  

Yeah, I usually also do the Christmas-avoidy thing. This year though, it seems to be happening naturally - I bought my presents for people at home in October (they had to be posted by the end of October to make it to Oz surface mail before Christmas, and air mail is super expensive when you're sending boxes), and for people here I'm buying things from fun shops that aren't in malls. Avoiding malls is the key to avoiding Christmas hassle.

I have a tendency to just call the whole end-of-year holiday period "Christmas" as in "what are you doing for Christmas?" and I should really say "...for the holidays." So, apologies to Bol and SNeak for all the other non-Christmas people I've said it to in the past. I'll try to be better.

On the upside, I always took Boxing Day for granted until I realised it's not celebrated in the States! I think it would be very strange to go back to work the day after Christmas.

And oh! This year I'm having a Christmas-card Christmas: snow and carollers and stockings hung up and chimneys and chestnuts roasting on an open fire. Usually my Christmases are lots of fresh seafood and salads and fruits and cold egg-nog and lots of wine and playing cricket in the backyard and then going for a swim at the beach or in someone's pool.

I'm bitter that I have no one to cuddle with on Christmas Eve.

Yeah, you all laugh, but sooner or later you'll feel the bitterness, too.

Don't worry, melusina... it's pretty rare not to have the day after Christmas off, in the States at least.

I can't join with you guys here. I love Christmas. I think it probably shouldn't last two months, but that's the fault of retailers and marketers (who understandably want to prolong it). I'm not religious at all, so the commercialism never bothered me. To me, it's about the magic that can exist in real life... it's love of family, elevated; love of life, elevated. It's the magical potential of everything finally brought to the surface... the best time of the year.

We used to go caroling around our adorable little brownstone neighborhood, and since that party disbanded, my sister and I always go to Washington Square Park on Christmas Eve and sing in the cold with hundreds of strangers.

I think this will be a minimal-Christmas year, though, at least until I get back to New York. I'm finding it hard — and kind of silly — to get in the Christmas spirit in L.A., where the most wintry thing about the season is hearing Musak carols in the 7-11. And those people hanging lights on the palm trees... My brain isn't accepting this clearly summer weather as Christmastime.

I too pretty much love Christmas.  I even love the cheesy mall holiday music.  I just really like shopping for people, and Christmas is a great excuse for that.

New Year's kind of gets me, though, because it feels like you have to have the greatest plans, and the most optimistic outlook on the next year, and the most romantic kiss.  Of course, it usually ends up me and a few friends knocking back Pabst Blue Ribbon and forgetting to turn the tv on in time for the ball drop.  I guess I usually enjoy it, but I set up all these high expectations for the party portion of the holiday season, and they rarely work out that way.

I haven't listened to any music other than holiday tunes since last Thursday (mostly "Hipster's Holiday" and "The Edge of Christmas"). I was getting a little concerned because I thought I was the only person who was pro-Christmas. But then again, I am the sappy Polyanna, so...

This should be a weird one, though. My parents sold the house we grew up in this past summer. I'll be spending the holidays at their rental (they start construction in the spring), which means that I will be spending Christmas in a house that I may have only been in once before.

New Year's Eve has always been odd. It's usually ski, have dinner out, go home, watch TV, sleep, wake up early to go skiing again. I can count on one hand the number of times I actually went to an official "champagne at midnight" New Year's Eve party.

*gasp*

I LOVE Christmas. LOVE it. From the Sally-Ann band playing outside of Markies when you come out, to the shitty left over pre-wrapped boxes of Shaving kits that are remaining in BHS on Christmas Eve.

I'm so excited to go home for Christmas for the first time in 3 years, I can't even believe it. And Boxing Day? Wheee! I've pretty much always had to take time off to have boxing day. I LOVE it. It's almost the bigger day for me. Or at least, it used to be - we'd have all the other "family" that hadn't been over for Christmas, and we'd (okay - the adults) would get shitty. And then they'd make me sing, but I'd get money for it, so it wasn't too bad. And there were more presents, and more roast potatoes - what's not to love?

*sniff*

Oh, to be 13 again. Without the acne and self doubt, of course.

edited to point out, that I'm just sayin' - I know that there are a bunch of folks here who don't celebrate it. Oh - and Melusina - I had (still have, to be honest) the same problem with the Holiday/Christmas thing. Most people are understanding about it though.

(Edited by Ginni at 7:12 pm on Dec. 4, 2001)

I luvluvluv Christmas. Unforunately, I'm Jewish, and my mom's all "embracing Judaism and putting up Christmas Lights are not the same thing".

But I'm still all about the "'Tis the season"age. To me, it's secular and I-Love-Fellow-Man-like. I hum Christmas Carols between classes. My father finally got me a holiday coloring book. It's fun.

I make others sick with my holday love. That could be the best part!

I'm with the anti-holiday crowd.  I think maybe I'm still getting over the disapointment and realization that holidays just aren't the same as when you're little.  Now it just seems like a hassle.  I don't have time to decorate, only to take the decorations back down in 4 weeks!      And man, these holiday things make the stores so crowded!  That's just not cool.

The concept of giving presents seems silly to me too.  I mean why do people spend their money to buy each other things the other person will never like?  Why not just save the money and buy what you really want?  Some people just like to give people gifts, that's okay, I can understand that - but if you like giving gifts so much why do you need a holiday?  Speaking of which, my family has decided that instead of exchanging gifts this year they are going to do a Yankee Swap on Christmas.  (I've yet to find a way to break the news of this horrid event to Nalian who I am sure will be just as appalled as I.)  Perhaps I will excercise some passive resistance and show up with no gift to exchange.

I do, however, like some Christmas music.  It's kind of like showtunes - these classic songs that you know all the words to.

Oh, I like Yankee Swap's!  You can end up with the weirdest stuff.  Or, sometimes, scratch tickets!  That's how I spell Christmas.

What the #### is a yankee swap?

man, what the #### did I get myself into? I wanna go home. :(

Don't go home, Nal. It's too warm and unChristmasy over here. Stay over there and roast your chestnuts while ye may.

I love Christmas, but only the secular stuff.  My dad makes me go to Church and I goad him into talking about pop culture and then get us to cut out before Communion.  This has worked 3 years running.  Woo!  ####, I'm good.

If it helps, Brood, my cuddlee will not be around Christmas Eve, nor Christmas morning, as he is staying overnight at his parents' house.  It's just as well, though.  I'd never get to Bayonne before noon if he was home.  Merry Christmas and all that.

I think in my family the Yankee swaps are a vast improvement over the monstrous gift exchange hoo-ha we used to have.

Nalian, a Yankee swap works like this:  everyone buys a gift of about the same price range, for nobody in particular.  They all get wrapped up and put in a bag or something.  Everybody draws a number from one to however many of you there are, for the order you pick presents in.  Starting with number one, you choose one and unwrap it.  You either keep it, or trade it for any already-unwrapped present.  In what I consider the nicer version of the swap, number one gets to swap their present for *any* present at the end (because otherwise the person who goes first has no choice at all).

It's like a grab bag but more elaborate.  I think it's fun.  But it hs to be done in a spirit of fun, not a spirit of trying to get the best present at all costs.

So precisely once I've brought a girlfriend (now ex-) to Christmas.  I didn't introduce her as such--she was my friend from New Mexico who was staying in Boston over the holidays, dontcha know.  I didn't know about the swap, but my mom very nicely got presents for both of us to put into it.  We had excellent poker faces; when, during the swap, my girlfriend opened up a video of "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" neither of us batted an eye.

Hee, C.  

I'm very much looking forward to my presents this year.  Nearly everyone who's done the polite 'is there anything you would like?' thing has been told that, YES, I would like vouchers to go towards the DVDs I've been saving up for.  If all goes to plan, the day after Boxing Day I shall be trotting home from the shops with S2 and S3 Buffy and (perhaps) S1 Angel.  And that'll be a very happy New Year for me!

I can't decide what to do for Hogmanay this year, I don't think I can face the crowds this time.  But then I say that every year and unless I'm away, I always end up going to see the fireworks.  It'd be nice if the war was over by then; it still feels like 2002 could hold scary stuff.  It's cute that it's a palindromic number, though, I like writing it.

Okay, here's the thing about the holiday for me. It's a religious holiday, based on the life of a biblical (and historical) figure, but people consider it an American holiday (and thanks for SNeaker for suggesting that distinction). What about all the Jewish Americans, and Hundu and Muslim, and athiest? Calling it Christmas, and having national days off of work for something that should, at its core, be a time of religious reflection, bugs me.

On the other hand, winter is a magical and invigorating time, as ejg suggests. If we, as a culture, celebrated a winter holiday, one with trees (symbolic of the cycle of life), gift giving in the spirit of fun, and appreciation of all the things around us (songs, decorations, etc.) but we didn't call it "Christmas," I'd be all over it.

Yes, one could say "B, just get over it already. Who cares what they call it? Celebrate as you'd like, and don't worry about it." Well, I care about that. When you wear a cross around your neck people should be able to comfortably assume that makes you Christian (in the sense of the Jesus died for our sins and will be reborn sense, not the Jesus was a good teacher and historical figure sense). Using that logic, if you celebrate "Christmas," doesn't that mean that you're using the winter holiday as an appreciation of the religious event that Christmas represents?  For me, it all comes down to what I call it, and my problem with the typical holiday fare of decorated trees, gifts, Santa, and carols is that they are almost always associated with "Christmas" and not just the wonderful idea of a pagan winter holiday celebration. Thus, I assume that if people drive by my house and see cardboard reindeer on my lawn, they can assume I'm Christian.

On a side note, my mother tells me that even when I was very little, under 3 years old, I simply wouldn't buy into the idea of Santa. They went through all kinds of elaborate schemes to get me to believe that a Mr. Claus left gifts under the tree, but I just didn't do it. I looked up at them like "nuh uh."  Maybe that was a sign of things to come.

Maybe I've never thought of it as an American holiday because... I've never been in America for it! But even when I think about the traditional Christmas, it's more European. Interestingly, I read an article about St Nicholas the other day and it suggested that when St Nick started being used in the "Santa" kind of way, initially he had a big sack with him that he'd put bad children in at the end of the year. Kind of funny, given Anya's comments on Santa Claus in whichever episode that was.

And Veda, as I've gotten older and the presents haven't meant as much, I've felt each Christmas has been less and less Christmassy. The funny thing about this is that I feel like this Christmas, my first Christmas in winter, is more Christmassy - despite having had 28 Christmases in the middle of summer. It'll be strange not having my family around, but as far as the Christmas aatmosphere goes, lights and snow and mittens certainly seems to be working better for me than sunscreen and plastic trees.

Ok, don't get me wrong here.  I love holidays.  I love American holidays, and I especially love Jewish holidays.  But I don't expect anyone who's not Jewish to enjoy Jewish holidays, and I wouldn't want any of my sacred holidays to become American holidays that A) Anyone could participate in and B) Would make others feel left out.

Like Boliver said, Christmas is a Christian holiday celebrating the birth of one Mr. Jesus.  Gift-giving, family, festivities, charity...all very nice sentiments.  There's no bad there.   I certainly don't begrude any of you your enjoyment.  Please!  Enjoy!  But all the festivities are inextricably linked to this Jesus guy.  I understand that most people celebrate it as a secular holiday, but I think that's what I object to.  I wouldn't want MY holidays secularized.

It's also very uninclusive.  The biggest American holiday of the year is one that a large percentage of the population can't and/or doesn't want to celebrate.  I have the same problem with the uninclusiveness of some political leaders, especially in the wake of Septmember 11th.  America is supposed to be the place where people can worship (or not) however they wish and still be part of one glorious nation.  Separation of Church and State and all that jazz.  

As Boliver said, if there were simply "Winter Holidays" where America has its own traditions and happens to be around the same time that Christians celebrate Christmas, Jews celebrate Chanukah, blacks celebrate kwanzaa, etc. than that would be fine.  Many New York colleges always make Spring Break over Passover, (which is usually around Easter time) so for everyone it's Spring Holidays.  But I don't want to deck the halls with boughs of holly, I'm not dreaming of a white Christmas, and my mommy isn't kissing Santa Claus.  Which is not to say that I object to Christmas music on the radio.  Or Christmas specials, or Christmas episodes of TV shows..hey, a good percentage of the population is Christian and celebrates it.  I think it's only the overall attitude that I object to.  Also there's way too much of it.

I don't know what the #### I'm trying to say anymore.  It's not something I sit and sulk about.  And hey, as my mother pointed out, the Holiday Season usually comes right after Election Season, so big, BIG step up there.  I'd rather hear a hundred Christmas songs than ####### politicians slinging mud at each other.

(Edited by SNeaker at 12:16 pm on Dec. 5, 2001)

It's sort of off-topic, but since you mention Sept. 11, SNeaker, another thing that gets my goat is the "God Bless America" sentiment everywhere.

What, God is supposed to just Bless us, because...why? Because on Sept. 11 a bunch of Americans died? (What about all the people dying of starvation, civil unrest, AIDS, and cancer all over the world?) Because we're mainly a Christian nation? Why not Bless ALL of us, all countries, all peoples? "United We Stand" on every shirt and car I see I can handle, despite its sentimentality, because to me it infers that we as a group (religion and race aside) will stand up against terror, or that terror won't break our resolve to live lives free of oppression and strife. God Bless America? Fuck off, and take your God with you.

Hey, this is the Rant section, no? :-D

melusina, the point you made about not thinking of it as an American holiday, I think, brought the point home even more for me. Which countries celebrate Christmas? Britan, Australia, America, Germany, blah blah mainly Christian nationcakes. These countries have other religions in them as well.

So, my question is, in other countries, is the celebration of wintery goodness tied inextricably to the religious Christian holiday, or is there a multitude of celebration of different flavors?

I think in Australia the fact that Christmas isn't in winter, and most of the other religious holidays aren't at their traditional time of year either, makes it easier to keep it less Christian-specific there. What brings Australians together at that time of year, regardless of religious belief, is the cricket test starting on Boxing Day, and the Sydney - Hobart yacht race, which also starts on Boxing Day. And the Boxing Day sales. So Ginni, I think I have to agree with you that Boxing Day is by far the more important day!

On the different-seasons-thing though: I have friends who are Baha'i and their faith calls for them to fast for a month in February; they're not allowed to eat anything during daylight hours. Which works fine in the northern hemisphere, when February is mid-winter and the days are pretty short, but in Australia it's light from 4.30am until 8.30 or 9pm - now that has got to require some pretty strong faith. (Strangely, it wasn't this that put me off considering becoming Baha'i, it was the fact that they don't drink alcohol. Although those of you that know me would say that's not strange at all).

Here's my take on it.  I was raised a Catholic and for us, it truly was a fundamentally religious celebration.  Since I always spend Christmas with my broccoli-smuggling mother, who is a very devout Catholic, for me to some extent it is still is a religious time, which is fair enough I think.  But I don't feel that people as a whole, that the country (this one, anyway) in any way celebrates it as a religious festival, because I see the difference between actual Christians celebrate it (not as important as Easter, for one thing, in the theological scheme of things) and the commercial, capitalist, cheesy frenzy that it has become in our Western society. I think most people with Christian faith would agree with SNeaker that it has become debased and overly secular. It's true that it's dressed up with the name of Jesus and the nativity story, but so what? This has become almost just another tale, less important to most than A Christmas Carol, It's A Wonderful Life, Charlie Brown's Christmas, etc.

So I can see that it must be odd that these specific Christian names and stories are loosely tied to what's regarded as a national holiday, but I think the split is really between those who actually believe them and everybody else, whether they actually believe something else (including atheists) or just couldn't give a figgy pudding and only want to spend money, get drunk and watch Only Fools And Horses on TV for the millionth time.

Also, it has to be said that people nowadays are quite often celebrating festivals from other cultures.  I've been to Chinese New Year, Mela and Eid events, which are usually organised by the local council and therefore semi-official.  Granted they're not as big a deal as Christmas, but they are there and they try to make them a multi-cultural thing.

What she said.

Very much in agreement with Pandrea’s last two paragraphs there.

Melusina is right in that Christmas isn’t like Thanksgiving; it’s not an American holiday. It’s a world holiday.

Also, you can’t safely assume that wearing cross jewelry makes someone Christian. They might think it’s cute ornamentation, or, in our lot, that you’re trying to ward off vampires. Any very old symbols acquire alternate meanings and traditions.

Which is I think an important point about Christmas. Thousands of years of traditions, secular as well as religious, from countries all over the world, have sprung up around the thing. (I’m thinking of the Italian crèche manufacturing tradition.) And those are what make it wonderful. I feel about holidays the way Giles does about books vs. computers. You can’t invent a new holiday and have it have the same texture and wonder and import, because holidays are about accumulated tradition. Singing “We wish you a Merry Foobub” doesn’t have the same ring.

I don’t want some Esperanto holiday. I think that’s a good bit of what’s awkward about Kwanzaa. It’s (literally) contrived, and so it feels awkward. Not like Christmas and Rosh Hashanah.

On to the issue of noninclusiveness. Any holiday celebrated in America is, of necessity, going to be one that a large portion of the population doesn’t participate in, because America has that heterogeneity thing going on. It’s not like Italy and France, where, yes, Boliver, the majority of the population is not only Christian but from a single school of Christianity.

As to what SNeaker said about not wanting her holidays secularized, it’s only through the secularization of Christmas that it can be my holiday, because I’m an atheist. I’ve noticed that my Jewish friends (understandably) invest the thing with a lot more religious import than I do. They’re unable to see it as a secular event, and that’s too bad. I’m glad to see Fox and her Christmas-lights philosophy. (I’m not advocating that anyone else change their minds, but that makes me personally glad.)

And let us not forget that without Christmas, you wouldn’t have Xander doing the Snoopy Dance.

I really like the idea of Merry Foobub.  Maybe we should institute it as our own Fugees Festival.  We wish you a Merry Foobub, and a Happy Wachoo.

No, it's not.  It's very very good.  Go them!  The very name of Christmas has Christ, meaning messiah, as its prefix.  Most Jews I know (myself included) won't even say the name, because it gives it validity.  (Nor do we use BC or AD to denote time periods.)  I think it's great that you take part in the secular aspects of it, and I wish you a merry Christmas, but it's still a religious holiday at its core.  Someone who is an atheist, such as yourself, can take part in aspects of it if you so desire, but someone whose religion forbids it, or whose beliefs can't overlook it, cannot.  No matter how secular it becomes.

As for which holidays America celebrates- like I said, there's a difference between legal holidays and American (or any other country's national) holidays.  No matter the religion, we can all participate in Thanksgiving, Independence Day, Memorial Day, Labor Day...these holidays are inclusive.  They say, no matter what your background and belief system is, you can celebrate being an American and everything it stands for.  Christmas by its very nature can NOT be celebrated by everyone.

(Edited by SNeaker at 5:16 pm on Dec. 5, 2001)

I agree about the September 11th stuff.  I hadn't noticed it until Nalian pointed it out to me, but all the signs that say "God Bless America.  United We Stand." are very uninclusive.  The thing that really got to me about it was that all around MA there were lots of those road construction signs on the sides of the highways with the phrase on it.  As far as I know I always thought it was illegal to use public equipment and money to advertise anything religious.

In terms of Christmas, I totally understand what you guys are saying, but I can also see the flip side of it.  I was actually pretty surprised that you guys thought that it was still very (Christian) religious in the US because I know a lot of Christians who will argue that the religious part of the holiday has been lost to the commerical and media parts.  I went to Catholic school and I had nuns who would get very offended if you wrote X-Mas because you were, "taking Christ out of Christmas."  (I'm not saying whether or not I agree with this or anything, just pointing out the other side.)

You're all right - it is unfair that this Christian holiday gets national legal status an no other religious holiday does, but I just wanted to point out that not all Christians agree with its current status either.

On a different note, melinusa, you said you're more used to the European version of Christmas... What is that like?  I love learning about cultural things in other parts of the world.

(Edited by Veda at 5:10 pm on Dec. 5, 2001)

Oh, I agree veda.  So basically, it's both too religious, and not religious enough :)

I heard that X-mas still reads as Christmas.  That the latin X is CH, it's just a different spelling.

Now, I'm not saying I think it's a very religious holiday, because I don't think it IS, anymore. Any respect I have for a serious religious holiday, and I think Christmas should be that, goes out the window when it becomes about gifts, and non-celebration of the birth of Christ stuff. When I saw "The Grinch" with Jim Carrey, I found myself nodding along with all the Grinchy things the character said about the subjugation of the Christmas spirit into something entirely different.

What SNeaker said, too much, and not enough at the same time.

(Edited by Boliver at 2:20 pm on Dec. 5, 2001)

But isn't it as serious as you make it?  I know people who regularly attend Christmas Mass, tell their children the story of Christ, and volunteer at soup kitchens on the day.  Not many people, but it's not unheard of.  The Santa aspect has more to do with our tendency to make our culture child-friendly.  An argument can be made that public schools shouldn't be obligated to give the day off, but I think in practice they would anyway.  Christianity is an incredibly easy religion to be loosely associated with, and enough people come out for Christmas that you'd have a lot of empty schools anyway.  I'm not saying that all of that is a positive, but it seems like one of those issues that doesn't really offer a lot of options.

Also, and I accept that I am materialistic, but giving and getting presents while hanging out with people you like a whole lot isn't a bad way to spend a day.

Again, I agree with the idea of a cool, gift giving, fun holiday that has all the things we love about Christmas: crisp air, decorating the house and tree, carols, a celebration of winter, each other, and life. It doesn't have to be serious, it should be a joy.

But I don't think THAT holiday, which kids would get out of school for, and people off work for, and some stores closed for should be called "Christmas."

I'm envious of the folks who can not care about the religious implications of the holiday, and who can simply enjoy the time with cheerful abandon. That's gotta be wonderful, and I'm happy they get to experience that.

But...(and I don't assume anything about others here, just myself) in my studies of religion and my interest in it (and sometimes disgust with it), I have deep respect for the holidays that people celebrate in a religious way, with religious meaning. This is why I have a problem with Christmas; I respect it as a deep and meaningful time of symbolic import, and it seems as if even the people who feel they "should" be celebrating it in the way that means something to them, aren't.

But, once again, so much of this has to do with how we were raised, our parents' attitude about the winter holidays, our closeness with family in the past, blah blah nurturecakes. Thanks, guys, this is a neat discussion, and it's cool to read all the different views.

Edited to say that lest you guys find me inconsistent, those Victoria's Secret "angel" commercials really get my goat also.

(Edited by Boliver at 4:27 pm on Dec. 5, 2001)

There's nothing wrong with being inconsistent, Boliver.  I have never felt that I was obligated to make sense.

As an atheist, I completely understand your point of view.  I get annoyed with ubiquitous Christian symbols, especially during the holidays.  But I have a lot of happy memories associated with Christmas.  It has always been THE holiday in my family and they do it up big.  So I love the whole materialistic, commerical, what does religion have to do with it, package.  I also don't necessarily find it inconsistent with my atheism.  I think everyone, even the most devout, pick and choose the tenets of their chosen religion to make if comfortable for them.  So I choose to pick the aspects of Christmas that have nothing to do with the religion to celebrate.  I also comfort myself with the fact that Christmas is actually a pagan/Christian hodge-podge.

It's like when people say "You're in my prayers".  I translate that to "You're in my thoughts."  The same with Christmas.  I know Christ is featured prominently in the word but I tend to always see it as a whole word.  To some people it's a religious holiday, to me it's just a time to get together, eat too much food, laugh and exchange presents.  My brain conveniently works that way.

Yeah, for me it's really about the carols and the tree and, okay, yes, presents good, though if I had to choose one or the other I'd keep the tree and lose the presents in a heartbeat.  Oh, and the lights.  So since I experience it as such a secular holiday - even though I know it's not, and certainly a lot of the music is explicitly religious - it's hard to remember that a lot of people quite reasonably don't.  (Of course, I officially gave up on developing a completely logical worldview sometime in college when I realized how ugly that could get, so... intellectual dishonesty is not unknown to me.)

I'm bugged by God Bless America too, though.  Also I thought it was phenomenally unfortunate that GWB broke out a quotation from Psalms for his post-11th speech.  I mean, I suppose I should be glad he didn't choose something from the New Testament.

Ha!  At some point before I can remember, I apparently designed an existence-of-Santa experiment; I asked Santa directly (and I don't know if this was a lap thing or a letter thing - I think the former) for a gift that I didn't tell my parents about.  Didn't get it, either.

And I, by contrast, still believe in Santa. As a concession to age, I did stop leaving out the cookies and the sugar cubes for the reindeer.

(Edited by ejg25 at 1:26 am on Dec. 6, 2001)

I remember starting to doubt Santa and then getting a letter back from him (some sort of Post Office scheme for kids, I guess), which kept me believing for at least three more years.  I mean, it seemed like real proof.  It had a pawprint from Rudolph and everything.

One Christmas we were at my grandparents' house, I was about 7 I suppose, and I woke up just before midnight and thought I'd stay awake until Santa came. Lo and behold, the door opened - and my parents crept in with boxes of stuff to put in our Santa pillowcases! So the next day I told my oldest younger brother (who would've been 5) that Mum and Dad were really Santa Claus, but not to tell them or our youngest brother - well, Craig went into hysterics and practically flew into Mum and Dad's room, and I got into trouble for lying!!!

Veda, I've never had a European Christmas, but I guess when I think of a "traditional" Christmas it's Little Match Girl  kind of stuff, tiny stone churches, or in the woods with people skating on ponds. When I think of an American Christmas it's from Christmas movies and much more twinkly.

(Edited by melusina at 8:16 am on Dec. 6, 2001)

I celebrate Christmas as both a secular celebration and a religious holiday equally, because I don't believe the two have to be mutually exclusive. My enjoyment of decorating trees and giving people gifts doesn't diminish the fact that my favorite part of the whole holiday hulabaloo is attending midnight mass. I watch a lot of Christmas specials, but I'm more Linus than Grinch.

Who knew you and Marc Blucas would have that "standing in church with family at Christmas" thing in common?

That is too funny!

(Edited by Boliver at 9:57 am on Dec. 6, 2001)

Oh, but jenelope, midnight mass is soooooo long and the priest always drones on and on in his homily because his audience is double its normal size.  My sister fainted at midnight mass one time because all those extra people made the church so warm and the mass lasted so long.   The good thing about midnight mass that I remember is the choir singing the Christmas carols.  I love a good choir.

I'm the victim of an older sibling telling me there was no Santa Claus.  My brother told me the truth about Santa minutes after he found out.  I was so upset.  Not one to run to adults, I simply handled it myself by punching him in the stomach as hard as I could and angrily telling him "I didn't want to know that" then stomping away.

My parents separated when I was two, and double Christmases make Santa sorta hard to believe in.  I wonder if that was unique to me, or if lots of kids of divorce figure these things out earlier than the other children.  I still enjoyed the idea of Santa even after I knew he was false, though.

Heh, Ananda, same here.  I mean, I was 9 when my parents separated, so I already'd figured things out, but my 5-year-old brother figured stuff out pretty easily once Santa ended up going to two houses every year.  As did the tooth fairy.

A few more things:
1) I'm so calling Jesus "Mr. Jesus" from now on.  Thanks, SNeak.
2) The X in X-Mas does still stand for Christ.  I had nuns yell at us for the same thing and believed it was a way to take the Christ out of Christmas, so I was all ready to resurrect (heh.) it when I read this: http://www.snopes2.com/holidays/christmas/xmasabbr.htm which explains things rather nicely.
3) My friends and I don't celebrate Christmas, but rather White Day (complicated, but it's a joke Dino made up where it's a day to observe that non-whites are better than oppressive whitey.  He's Asian, for those that don't know) and Baracus (made up by Jay, worshipping the birth of B. T. Baracus, aka Mr. T on the A-team).  It takes all kinds.

You know after speaking to a nice lady in my office building who was talking about her New Year's plans and what a hassle it all is, I have to say that I am sooo thankful I don't have to deal with *that* one.  None of this, "have to find the perfect date, have to have the perfect kiss, have to make unattainable resolutions" stuff for me.  She asked me how I run in the new year in 2000 and I said I was sleeping.

Hee.  I know it's not the same situation as you, SNeak, but I'm totally not a New Year's person.  I usually eat pizza and watch Dick Clark, if I'm still awake, and putter about online.  This year, though, Michael wants to take me to Caroline's or something for some dealie they're having.  We'll see.

Surely the tooth fairy just goes wherever the teeth are?

I mean, if I'd happened to have been travelling and sleeping in a motel on Christmas Eve, I wouldn't necessarily expect Santa to find me there.  But if I'd lost a tooth and put it under my pillow there... that works like the bat signal or something.  Tooth fairy to the rescue!

Ah, but see, the tooth would be collected at one house and then I'd get money at BOTH houses.  

I love my parents, but they're not always very bright.

Okay, that's just weird.

Did both "tooth fairies" pay at the same rate per tooth?

And if they did, isn't that price-fixing?  I think you may have cause for legal recourse, here.

Sounds like a case for Ally McSqueal.  In fact, I think I saw that episode.

I read an article about Christmas songs yesterday (http://www.observer.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,615559,00.html) and it seemed kinda apropos to what we had been talking about.  The Philip Roth quote is particularly neat.

(Edited by Pandrea at 9:36 am on Dec. 11, 2001)