We were just watching some of the season 1 dvd's - I actually haven't seen a lot of season 1 or 2, so they're new for me.

Its funny to me how much Angel is out during the daytime in these episodes. Walking around outside, in police precints, and other places all while the sun is bright outside of the windows. I guess they were a lot more lenient then about when was and wasn't ok to have daylight.

Charisma looks *amazing* in those first few eps, and Boreanaz looks better too, IMO. It was nice to see Doyle as well - I pretty much quit watching when he died before.

I've read interviews where the Mutant Enemy folks admit that they goofed that first year, re Angel and the light levels. It was a set with a lot of windows, so that was part of the problem... the Hyperion set helped.

Oh, yeah, Cordelia's hair. I wanted that hair.

I was preparing to watch "In the Dark" this week, and was sort of mentally ticking off what the episode consisted of. I thought, it's the first Buffy crossover: Oz! And remembered Angel being tortured and the Ring of Amarra and Angel walking in the sunlight. Know what I managed to forget completely was in the episode? Spike. Now that my evil plan to wipe him from my memory is working, I'm a little frightened.

There are so many characters I miss in this one: Oz. Doyle. Spike. Cordelia. It has the quintessential Doyle moment: "House of Pies!" Cordelia scaring Doyle with arm-in-a-box stories. Oz doing a Ray Charles as he pronounces, "I mean, paler than most people."

And poor, poor Spike. There's some sad pot-kettle action there. "I was once a bad-ass vampire, but love and a pesky chip defanged me, and now I'm just a big fluffy puppy with bad teeth." Let my Spike go...

A really interesting tidbit from Jane Espensen's commentary on "Rm w/a Vu" is that the producers sometimes felt that Glenn Quinn's natural accent was making certain lines incomprehensible, so they'd have him loop them with a less Irish, more American inflection. Which addresses those critiques that always got lobbed at him that he didn't sound right or that his accent had grown American. Of course, it always sounded good to me. It's his American accent on Roseanne that sounds a little funny now that I know to listen to it. Still, poor guy.

He's really got a soft, sweet presence on the show. And I'm surprised to see now how much chemistry he and Cordelia had. At the time I thought he was doing all the flirting, but boy is she flirting back.

Ah. Maybe that explains why, in the trailer for Evelyn I saw last night, Pierce Brosnan had such a dodgy Irish accent.



Of course there's no reason that Doyle's accent couldn't have grown American.

I think there was more to that to the criticism. People were saying that his accent came and went, according to Espensen. And I remember people saying not that Quinn's accent had naturally faded, but that he'd been in America too long and had forgotten how to do one, and thus was faking up his accent or rendering it incorrectly.

I'm not that au fait with the argument on Doyle; but I do know that my accent comes and goes, depending on who I'm talking to, how recently I've been in Scotland, how much I've had to drink ...

Heh. A certain Scot I know also has a highly drink-dependent accent. And mine certainly changes depending on who I'm with. It's a little more New York outer-borough gal with one particular friend. With you guys, it's the full-on pastiche of Whedonic, hip hop, hacker, whatever else is coming through the transom this week. With the squares in the world outside, it's news-anchor standard English. Except when I slip and say "dude" at work.

That tickles me to no end.

I think the stragest thing I find about season 1 and 2 is that I miss Fred when I watching them. She's not a real favourate of mine, but I actually feel that her presance is missing from season 1 and 2. Weird.

Wow. That is weird!

Funny. With every new episode in Season 4 I'm still startled to see her. "What?!? Is that squawking interloper *still* here?"

I finally poked at the extras, and that promo we were talking about over in Buffy / Stupid Questions? about the first minute of it is interspersed with talking heads in "Introducing Angel" on disc 6. It just makes me want the rest at DVD quality.

Ah. Cool. I'd forgotten about that.

I wish they would put it in. Eventually, maybe. There's still a Season Four disc to be developed.

So I had a new Angel and an old Angel on the schedule to watch tonight, and I thought I'd be clever and watch the new one first so I wouldn't be making unfavorable comparisons. Well, that was a bust. Even though I like the large ensemble cast now, and though I think Season Four is Angel's best season yet (I'm just a Season Four kind of girl, I guess), I still miss the intimate quiet of Angel, Cordelia, and Doyle. And you think that of those three, today two are

Spoiler (Highlight to Read):

puffy and evil

and the other is dead. This sucks. And in terms of the actors, how did this happen? It's only been three years; we're not talking the cast of Star Trek here.

Sigh. "I Will Remember You." This time not only did I get choked up when he walked out onto the boardwalk, I got choked up when he threw her on the table. It's a sickness. And she was so beautiful inside and out then... she was Buffy, you know?

Another retroactive heartbreaker, when she tells him in the tunnel, "I'm really on the verge of something here. I'm on my way to having a really good life..." That'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Angel made this (ridiculous) sacrifice so he could send her off into the sunshine of her normal life... and then.

I've been missing the intimacy of Cordelia, Angel and Doyle too. There was a real sense of friendship and emotional isolation, yet they lived in the world. S4 Angel has been sequestered in its own orbit of the MOG, not quite as bad as on Buffy, but getting there.

I have also been struck by how much younger CC and DB look, and for DB slimmer. I don't usually think of adults changing appearance that much in 3 years, but clearly CC and DB can no longer fake being early 20's anymore (same goes for darling Nick Brendan)

I'm not sure that the Angel writers are even trying to hold on to the pretence: in a recent episode Cordy reassured Connor along the lines of "life gets better once you're past 21". Not that convincing coming from an actual 21 year old, which I think she technically is.

I've now watched through "I Will Remember You" which had me in tears for two reasons.

First, SMG really sold Buffy in this one, the scene right before the clock turns back "I"ll never forget" is just great. I couldn't help but get teary. DB did a great job too. This ep. really summarized Angel's character - noble and self-punishing, emphasis on the latter.

Second, it really hit me that Glenn Quinn is dead and what a sad loss that is. There he is in these early episodes: young, so handsome and charming - it doesn't seem possible that he no longer exists in real life. I'm finding it sad that his life could go so wrong. Whatever his problems were in real life, he was undeniable talented and always delivered on Angel. Watching "Hero" is going to be tough. RIP, Glenn Quinn.

It also seems to me that Doyle might have been Angel's only friend (other than Buffy). I'm seeing Angel reaching out to Doyle and trying to find out more about him in a way that Angel doesn't do anymore. Now Angel reaches out to people only as a boss or a protector. With Doyle, Angel reached out as an equal. I thought back in S1 and now again on rewatching, that Doyle was one of the more interesting, complex characters developed in the Buffy/Angel verse (e.g., his backstory as a 3rd grade teacher and on his marriage in the Bachelor Party). He had some real pain - not high school angst, not I-was-dead-and-now-I'm-back-pain-oh-I'm-so-special-but-I'm-beneath-you pain or like-an-addict pain, but a pain of lack of self-acceptance and of feeling a failure (Wesley also seems to have this pain, which may account for why he fit into the Angelverse so effortlessly when Doyle was killed off). Doyle's story wasn't finished when he was killed off.

I actually found it sadder to watch Quinn in "I Will Remember You" than in "Hero." He was just so adorable there, prime Doyle at the height of his powers. And, yes, floods of tears at Angel's sacrificing "every bit of human happiness he's ever known." That's where I get to shaking my fists at the screen, "You stupid... noble... stupid..."



Amen. I'm selfish. I don't care if it was difficult for them to work with him behind the scenes or on set — he never didn't bring it onscreen, and the show was getting made. So, from the viewer perspective, why couldn't he have stayed? It's a conspiracy against the pot-bellied.



Agree with every word there. I think Angel felt that Doyle was a friend because Doyle made him laugh and lightened up his broody life... even if Angel was watching from a bemused distance, he appreciated the sheer life force of Doyle. And they did have some common ground on which to bond: two Irish half-demon boys out on the town.

The only reason I think of that would be justified for them letting Quinn go is if it were obvious he was using drugs, like heroin. Aren't actors insured on shows? No insurance company worth its salt (and not insuring Robert Downey Jr.) would continue to insure a heroin user, and I would think it's in the production company's best interest not to work with that as well; it's too large a risk, and it's likely that the actor puts the addiction/[insert own term here] before the show. While asking an active actor not to bungee jump or rock climb or skydive doesn't seem so crazy, asking a heroin user (or whatever drug du jour they're into besides pot) to stop during filming is unrealistic. I suspect that's the only reason Joss would let Quinn go so early, unless it was written in the show far ahead of time. And I'm not convinced it was, despite what Joss says.

I don't think him being ejected early necessarily indicates that drug use was the problem. If he was drinking, it'd be the same thing... messed-up work schedules, tensions on set, worries about productivity and deadlines. And then there's another possibility, which is that he had conflict with the Allmighty Whedon or another cast member. Which I guess would have to be Carpenter, since Boreanaz isn't the type to not get along with anyone, and I get the sense that he really cared for Quinn.

Hmm, Whedon must have known him from Roseanne. I don't know... Quinn managed to survive happily on Roseanne for, what, five or six years. And that was to all accounts a horrible and tense set; even John Goodman bailed at the end.

And that's why I said it was the only reason I could think of that would justify a bouncing- I'm not assuming it was drug use.

I could see alcohol abuse playing out much the same way, though, if Quinn was hard to work with on the set, even if he was good an screen. I'm not saying he was, I have no idea.

Yeah, I'm not serious in blaming them if they couldn't make it work behind the scenes. It may be our fantasyland, but it's their workplace. I just wish... and also now I wonder if having been ejected from a successful series, and not working much after, preyed on him and contributed to the horrible way things turned out. Being an actor is a hard and insecure life, and a career in decline is a bad trip.

Continuing my race with Nalian to see who will be the slowest to finish the Season One DVDs...

Is it just me, or was "The Ring" just an excuse to have Angel in an undershirt for a whole hour? That's one of my least favorite episodes, but I found myself enjoying it more this time... because it's when Cordelia and Wesley finally develop their (hilarious) rapport. And it features Lilah's debut at the height of her Boris-and-Natasha glory. Also, big gaffe or else emperor's new clothes scenario: when Cordelia plucks Keanu's horsehair from her bracelet and gives it to Wesley, and when he tests it against the wrist cuff, there is no hair there.

Something I completely failed to pick up on in "Eternity" is the following exchange:

Rebecca: "This isn't you."
Angelus: "People always confuse me with the character I play. They never see the real me."

Nifty resonance with Connor's insistence that Angel is just a costume Angelus is forced to wear. I don't believe it, but it's got that twilight-zone woo-woo quality.

You're ahead of me now, I still haven't made it past 11..

Yay, I'm ahead of somebody!

Another thing I didn't notice about "Eternity" is that Wesley clotheslines Angel with the bottom of the elevator. Ow.

Well, I got the dvs for Valentine's Day, and I'm only up to The Prodigal, having skipped only Somnambulist, which I'll probably watch next, though I don't know when with all the Farscape eps piling up that I haven't yet seen.

Yeah, Wesley and Cordelia were so good together. I really don't understand why the show has had them hardly ever in the same room even for the last year and a half or so. It's almost as if the actors aren't speaking to each other or something.

Wow, I watched last week's prime time Angel, and then watched some season one stuff right afterwards. I know I'm probably just fixated on the whole pregnancy thing, but the before-and-after Cordelia comparison is really striking.

A lot of it is the hair, I know, because nothing on her haid can come close to comparing to that wonderous mass of long chestnut glory, but the slimness of her arms and the bones of her face have disappeared from view altogether. I'm kind of glad they wrote the pregnancy into the show, because trying to make believe that evil Cordelia wasn't preggers required just too much suspension of belief for me.

And I really miss Dennis.

Tee hee.

I miss Angel doing Tai-Chi.

Me too. I think his Tai Chi scenes are probably the only times I've found David Boreanaz particularly sexy (although more in Buffy S3, I think).

Mmmmmm, sweaty Angel. Mmmmmmm.

I actually think Charisma looks better a little heavier - for a while there in S1 she was kind of scary thin.

I agree. I thought she looked her best at the beginning of each of the first 3 seasons, when she'd put on a bit of healthy summer hiatus weight. At the end of Season 1 (I'm thinking especially of the Faith eps) she looked really old and haggard from being too thin.

I didn't think so. It's just that by the end of Season One she was heavily into the tangled-hair-peasant-top look, which while fine in itself isn't really suited to Cordelia. I thought she looked fabulous back then. She definitely had the curves that some of the other actresses don't. Although I was surprised to notice that her face is naturally somewhat rounder than I remembered... I'm starting to think that if she still had the long hair now, she really wouldn't look so drastically different.

I was surprised during the Faith episodes to note how wholly I was siding with Angel and Faith and how much I've come to loathe every mention of Sunnydale. Hopefully it's partly just that I'm not seeing the corresponding Buffy episodes, so it's hard to recall the grudge. But if anyone had ever told me that there'd come a day when I'd adore Faith and hate Buffy, love Angel and hate Buffy... intellectually I know I used to be different, but.

Fortunately I regained some sympathy for Buffy by late "Sanctuary," or I would have felt completely insane.

The shooting scripts reveal that Angel was supposed to be shirtless when he was comforting Faith at the end of "Five by Five." Can you imagine that — they actually put a shirt on him? I'm impressed.

I was also uncomfortably aware that I was siding with "everyone who isn't a selfish coldhearted bitch named Buffy" when I rewatched Sanctuary too, and it was very upsetting. I know that it's totally and completely the influence of my feelings for Buffy in Season 7. Hopefully with some time I'll forget the later crap and be able to immerse myself in earlier seasons and watch them in order with the proper perspective.

Well, I had my usual 'critical understanding' for Buffy in those scenes, ie, I knew she was being bitchy but I could really see why she would be and emphathise with that whole 'I hear myself doing/saying this, I know it's probably wrong, but I just don't care' that I think she was doing. Part of the reason I like her character is that she makes mistakes.

As for CC, I think she looked amazing in S1. While it's true that traditional Cordy was more a sleek, sophisticated type than the loose, wavy haired goddess in loose tops we saw then, you can never underestimate Ms Chase's occasional sheep-like tendencies and that look was very fashionable then. Plus, I'm sure she knew she looked great so why not go with it? I can certainly buy that look on a vain character, since it requires a lot of hair upkeep, than on someone who's supposed to be less caring about their appearance - it bugs me every time, for instance, we see Willow looking really obviously styled and made-up. Whereas Fred, to give her some sort of credit, looks pretty (if incredibly thin) but natural.

I watched that last confrontation between Buffy and Angel in the police station carefully, and I've come to the conclusion that Buffy didn't consciously decide to twist the knife. The look she gets on her face just before is contemplative, not malicious. Angel's just told her that he has his own life now and that she's not part of it, and sure, there's some of the one-upmanship of wanting her ex to know that she has her own. But she didn't start out in a harsh way... it was more the way you are when you have a secret you want to let out. I don't think she was thinking during that pause, "What will hurt Angel most?" I think that was what was pressing to the top of her brain, crying out to be said, and she let it go. When she admits she loves Riley, her tone is surprisingly almost apologetic.

By the time she gets to "I know him, I trust him," though, she's definitely into angry vindictive territory.

I agree Cordy looked much much better season 1. I know others commented on her appearance going down-hill when she started doing the blonde thing, but I didn't really agree until re-watching Season 1.

I also think she's looking a lot older this season. While Buffy, Willow and Xander are still pulling off pretty believable 21ish year old appearances I don't think Cordy is. Not to say she's looking old, just not 21. But Season 1 Cordy could definitely have been 18-19.

I don't think she's actually changed facially. If she weren't pregnant and hadn't gotten an "I'm a 30-year-old mom" haircut, I think she'd look exactly the same and pass just as well.

Just watched “Blind Date.” Man, Angel is more terrifying in those two sentences, “I remember what that felt like. Sometimes I miss that clarity” than (spoilers for the non-current)

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Angelus was in his whole Season Four arc. I wasn’t really unhappy with Angelus’ performance this year, but I’m now seeing your point, SNeaker, that now that he’s gone it seems like some of the terror has been taken out of Angelus. The essence of Angelus has been weakened and become somewhat lamer in my mind. Also, Wesley says, “There’s a design, Angel. Hidden in the chaos it may be, but it’s there.” Whoa.

Hey, Angel’s father was a linen and silk merchant. That explains his love of nice clothes. Neat.

I just watched the Buffy episode "Angel" on FX. Which isn't Angel Season 1, but this seems more appropriate than having an Angel-on-Buffy thread. Darla's performance in Angel's apartment was better than I remembered. I'm afraid the cheesiness of her death scene (talking through the prosthetic fangs, the guns, and all that) had overwritten the earlier scene in my memory.

The above is not my point. My point is, there was an extraordinary continuity, I thought, between Angel not immediately explaining himself to Buffy in the Bronze (he has a soul, he didn't bite Joyce, etc.) and the way he didn't explain himself to Holtz in Lullaby. In "Angel" I think there was a bit of a death wish involved, which I don't think was the case in Lullaby.

My second point is that Angel said "I wanted to kill you tonight" to Buffy. This is a line I really had forgotten, and it sort of bowls me over. I'm seeing less and less distinction between Angel as he was on _Buffy_ and souled Spike.

More from the Nifty Coincidences Department. In “To Shanshu in L.A.,” Vocah reads from the scroll, “The world shall know The Beast, and The Beast shall know the world.” (Spoilery for the non-current)

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And then the part that Wesley reads to Cordelia is, “And if The Beast shalt find thee and touch thee, thou shall be wounded in thy soul and thou shall know madness.” Neat! Though if it applies to recent events, the cause and effect of the sentence is reversed from what you would have thought then. And then it continues, with slightly less current applicability, “The Beast shalt attack and cripple thee and thou shalt know neither friend nor family. But thou shalt undo The Beast. Thou shalt find the sacred words of Anatole and thou shalt be restored… blah blah prophecy blah blah." And in order to shanshu, Angel has to survive “the coming darkness” (check!), “the Apocalyptic battles” (check!), a few plagues and several fiends that will be unleashed upon the world. I’m loving this stuff in retrospect.

Also, the Beast of Amalfi is due to arise in Reseda in 2003. Hee. I guess we better start watching out for it.

Merciful Zeus ejg!! That's some awesome stuff.

I'm doing a Season 1 rewatch at the moment and I'd just like to comment on a really sweet scene that I often forget about. Angel cooking breakfast for Cordy and Wes at the end of Parting Gifts.

If the Beast of Amalfi showed up sometime this year, they would get so much credit for future stupidities with me, just because I'd be so tickled. Extra credit if it was introduced with a chime of Wesley's Palm Pilot. ("Ooh, I'd forgotten about that!")

Hee! I'm sorry, that's too funny to not comment on.

My goodness, that is clever. It would be even funnier if this beast turned out to be just some ickle kitten adopted by Lorne ("Ain't he the cutest thing, folks?") or something.

Well, I finally got the Season 1 DVDs (huge mix-up at Christmas and waiting for the friend who bought me Season 3 Buffy [which I already had] to refund those DVDs and purchase the Season 1 Angel DVDs). I'm only about halfway through which is most of the Doyle eps. It really is heartbreaking to watch his episodes knowing not only that he's going to die on the series but die so young in real life. I remember when this show first started, I didn't quite know what to make of Doyle but he did fit in.

Another thing that I'm reminded of when watching is how tight knit Cordelia, Angel and Doyle were. They were really friends and it was sweet to watch. Like the scene where Cordelia is bitching to Angel about how working there has ruined her shallowness, that she expects men not only to be rich and good-looking but she wants substance. DB does such a great job in this scene where he's a mixture of indulgent and supporting and showing traces of actual affection. I think with the larger cast it's hard for people to sit around and moan about their personal life and I'm a little sad about that. I also agree with eej (I think), who mentioned how Doyle was more Angel's equal than any one of the other MoGs are or have been. It's an interesting dynamic and I suppose before Cordelia went through her massive personality change and became Saint Cordelia, she was the closest to having that relationship with Angel. Angel does need someone around to call him on his shit and I don't really see anyone of the current MoGs doing that.

Also, when watching "I Will Remember You", I was struck by how much I liked Angel and Buffy's relationship and remained even more baffled by how anyone, anyone at all, was rooting for Spuffy. Buffy and Angel were so supportive of each other, even when they were fighting. There was no degredation of one individual in order to control their behavior and there was no underpinnings of sexual violence in their relationship. The fact that Spuffy brought down a house in "Wrecked" and I'm supposed to think that's erotic makes me afraid for whoever thinks that's love or at least a way to begin a real relationship.