Mirren
Mar 24 2003, 04:36 PM
I hate something that became apparent to me over the weekend, at a friend's 30th birthday bash: none of my friends are really happy, or even content.
We're all coming up to or just passing 30 (I've still got just over 6 months left) so I suppose it's natural that people are taking stock of their lives. But I'm really upset about the conclusions that they're coming to.
Those that aren't in relationships are paranoid about it, lonely, insecure or deafened by their ticking biological clocks. Those that are in relationships are scared to commit, or desperate to but have commitment-phobe partners. In pretty much every couple I know, one wants to get out of London asap, and the other can't begin to imagine living anywhere else.
Those of my friends who earn megabucks hate their jobs, and are exhausted all the time. Others who've tried to drop out of the rat race to pursue their dreams are skint, or unemployed, or can't find their direction. The stay-at-home mothers are bitter and bored. No-one feels fulfilled. We drink too much, smoke too much and eat crap. A lot of my friends are, I think, verging on clinical depression.
I know that this malaise is the luxury of the educated, professional late 20-something middle class. We've got time to brood - our aspirations are higher than those of any previous generation. We want to have it all: meaningful, lucrative job; sympathetic and sexy life partner; beautiful, untroubled kids; Jimmy Choo shoes.
Me? I'm happy. Really. My relationship is great. I love my job about 70% of the time, and like it the rest. I enjoy living in London, but I've a plan to get out. I'm healthy, I have spare cash for the things I want within reason. I enjoy going for runs by the river, sitting in the pub, reading, Buffy, Pret a Manger sandwiches. Life is good.
But I hate that my friends are so miserable, and I don't really understand why. Is is simply that I am a glass half-full person? Or am I just shallow? And how can I help them enjoy what they've got?
This has turned into a bit of a rant. But this has been really bothering me lately, and any perspective would be gratefully received.
underwater_desert
Mar 24 2003, 05:35 PM
QUOTE
I enjoy living in London, but I've a plan to get out. I'm healthy, I have spare cash for the things I want within reason. I enjoy going for runs by the river, sitting in the pub, reading, Buffy, Pret a Manger sandwiches. Life is good.
See, that sounds just about perfect to me. Maybe it is that I'm shallow, but the only two things I really want are a little more money (I have actually none at the minute, so that's not too unreasonable!) and to have my girlfriend not in another country from me (again, not too unreasonable, surely?). I did my being unhappy with everything bit when I was 16/17, and uncomfortable with my body (to the point of eating disorders) and my sexuality. Now the things that make me happy are little things, like a bit of unexpected summer in March, or sitting by myself in a cafe reading a good book. We're all being told everywhere we turn that what we have and do isn't enough, there's no way we can completely reconcile our lives with the "Sex and the City" ideal - and all the people in that are miserable half the time anyway.
So my point, if I have one, is this - in this respect, being shallow is a good thing, life's not perfect so we need to take our joys where we can find them.
Mirren
Mar 24 2003, 06:23 PM
See, u_d, I agree with you. Absolutely, poverty and long-distance relationships leave something to be desired. Wanting those aspects of one's life to change isn't remotely unreasonable. Thing is, my friends aren't really subjected to that kind of pressure. They seem to be chasing unattainable ideals - or they don't know what they want but they know they haven't got it.
QUOTE
We're all being told everywhere we turn that what we have and do isn't enough, there's no way we can completely reconcile our lives with the "Sex and the City" ideal.
Maybe that's what it is - a lot of pressure comes from the media. I would just have hoped that by 30 most people would be immune to that kind of thing. I know I'm really lucky. But surely it can't be the case that I'm the
only lucky one in my whole circle of friends? Does the whole of generation X feel this way? I'm torn between anguish for my friends - I've done nothing to deserve being the only happy one - and an awful and unsympathetic feeling that maybe they just need to count their blessings.
Boliver
Mar 24 2003, 09:18 PM
Well, I'm part of "generation X," and I've never been happier in my whole life. I'll turn 31 in June, and life is so wonderful that I'm looking forward to getting older. I don't feel any pressure by the media to live my life any way other than how I live it. I can't see how the media could affect me, other than supply me with entertainment, news, or some education.
But, I do know people my age who are stalled, either by working in jobs which don't suit them, or by feeling alone, and not being comfortable with being alone. I suppose that those people will either change their lives for the better by taking certain steps (like finding another line of work), or will just not.
Piranha
Mar 24 2003, 09:31 PM
Mirren, so much to say on this topic, that I don't know where to start.....but I will. Soon.
Actually, I popped in to whinge that my SN DVDs are still in absentia. Bugger.
hcauq1112
Mar 24 2003, 09:44 PM
But on the bright side, P - you can relive all the SN goodness from the very first episode when you get home from work.
Ambrose's Auntie
Mar 24 2003, 11:00 PM
I've been thinking over the points Mirren made all day. Of course, I've been doing work as well, but these questions have been bubbling away in the background. I guess there are a couple of things I'd say about Mirren's observations, albeit from the perspective of someone who is pushing 40, rather than 30.
I think as a group my friends who are my age are much more content now than they were 10 years ago. That's a generalisation, but to pick up on some of the issues - those who aren't in long-term relationships (like me) are happy in their own skin, content with their own company, and value the lifestyle that comes with being a free agent. Those with families are generally a bit more settled financially and enjoying that security.
Maybe some people just have to go through a baptism of fire to appreciate all the good things in life. I know I've done the work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week to build my career, and it wasn't until I stopped doing it that I realised how incredibly insular I'd been. I wouldn't say unhappy, because there were things about doing that which were fulfilling in their own way, especially when I remember some of the wonderful people I got to work with.
Mirren, I don't think you can help your friends enjoy what they have. It may be that they quite enjoy the misery, if that makes any sense. Poor me, I work so hard. Poor me, I don't have enough money. It's all quite attention-seeking, and it seems to work. Most people grow out of it - I'd like to think. Or it may be that they genuinely don't know what they want to do or be or have - but the search for that knowledge can be fun. Sounds to me like you could lead your friends by example!
In one sense, I've been very lucky. I've had one hell of a wake-up call in terms of my health, and whilst I'm not thrilled about the illness, it really does help put things into perspective. I have a wonderful family, the best friends anyone could hope for, these days I have a career that allows me to have a life outside of it - all things I didn't appreciate anywhere near enough before I got sick. Or maybe it's just a by-product of growing older -who knows?
Boliver
Mar 25 2003, 12:20 AM
I think that another thing that must contribute to people in their 20-40s being more stressed than ever before is that it seems companies and employers expect more from their employees than ever before, with fewer chances to move up just from hard work. The people I see around me every day work long, hard days, and then they're on call from the moment they leave until when they come back the next morning.
I can't help but wonder if the corporate agenda of "faster, better, cheaper" is aiding us in not being satisfied with what we do with our lives, when our lives are more and more defined by what we do for a living.
Piranha
Mar 25 2003, 12:27 AM
Mirren, AA stole my thoughts. Which is not unusual at all.
I think it's age, Mirren. Around the 30 mark seems to be where we realise that the dreams we had as an 8 year old and and eighteen year old don't apply now. Prince Charming is probably not coming, Bill Gates isn't offering you a Vice-Presidency, and you're not likely to win the lottery. It's a tough time, realising that the world is not so much your oyster as your sludge-pile. Mirren, it sounds like this is where your friends are now: assessing their lives, weighing them up against their hopes and expectations, and finding them wanting. I think it's very common, but it's not talked about because it goes against the image we all strive for at 29: to be in control and happy.
That sounds negative; it isn't meant to be. There's a huge transition and growth that comes from that realisation. AA, your health has probably put a sharper tip on the pointy end, but we all go through similar realisations. It's the awakening of reality, and most people will go through it at some point.
In my experience and that of several friends, it also seems to be in the early thirties when people make friends with themselves, following a less happy time in their late twenties. It's the time when we learn to value ourselves, to really drill down on what is important and identify our personal priorities.
There's no way to help your friends through this Mirren, other than to accept the changes. You can't make them happy. They will find their own paths. That is their journey.
The other thing I want to say is that medical and social authorities are predicting that within the next 20 years or so, mental health, and specifically depression will be one of the biggest medical challenges facing our society. Let's accept that people suffering mental illness need respect and support, and that maintaining relationships with depressives can be incredibly hard on everyone, including the friends and family. Mirren, well done on identifying that your friends may be in trouble, and for not walking away. Your friends are luckier than they know to have you on their side.
BJC
Mar 25 2003, 07:04 AM
QUOTE
medical and social authorities are predicting that within the next 20 years or so, mental health, and specifically depression will be one of the biggest medical challenges facing our society. Let's accept that people suffering mental illness need respect and support, and that maintaining relationships with depressives can be incredibly hard on everyone, including the friends and family.
Yeah, I heard the other day that they are predicting its going to be the second biggest cause of death behind cancer. Was it cancer? Can't remember.
As a family member of someone with clinical depression this prediction frightens the crap out of me. I certainly hope that there are better mechanisms in place then for dealing with all forms of depression than there are now.
Mirren
Mar 25 2003, 08:55 AM
Wow, you guys. I hardly know where to start replying to your insightful comments, but I’ll start by saying thank you. Thanks for taking me seriously, and for showing me that there is light at the end of the tunnel for my friends who’re going through shitty times.
QUOTE
I think it's very common, but it's not talked about because it goes against the image we all strive for at 29: to be in control and happy.
Maybe Piranha’s hit the nail on the head: this is the hidden trial, the pre-mid life crisis. In my circle of friends, we spent a lot of time in our mid 20s thinking how much happier and sorted we were than we had been in our late teens and early 20s (how self-obsessed we must all seem!). Our mid 20s were a time of excitement: first and second jobs going well, earning money for the first time, moving to the big city, making lots of new friends, boundless energy. We had no reason to believe that life wasn’t just going to keep on getting better and better. At 29, we would all be on top of the world. Well, generally I feel like I am—and so it hit me really hard when this creeping realisation that all was not well in my friends’ lives coalesced into a huge kick in the guts over the weekend.
AA, your point about your illness really resonated with me. I’m afraid it’s almost impossible not to sound patronising when I say how impressed I am that you can focus away from the day-to-day crapness and on to the new perspective you have. I’ve had a somewhat debilitating and long lasting (but never serious or progressive) illness that just maybe has made me take more joy in the small stuff than some of my contemporaries (though I’ve never had the wisdom or maturity to look at it AA’s way).
Ginni
Mar 25 2003, 09:07 AM
Okay - my tuppence-worth:
When I was in the States, I used to get very depressed and annoyed with myself frequently. I was desperately wishing I could come back home, because otherwise I was just 'existing'. I had no-one there who really knew me, none of my family was anywhere near me, I was constantly having to deal with being a foreigner and it just got too much. Don't get me wrong, I had a GREAT time and made a shitload of friends that I wouldn't be without. I had some great laughs, and learned an awful lot about myself that I just wouldn't ever have done if I'd not come out on my own.
BUT - I spent a huge amount of effort in "Well, it's not great now, but once I move home it'll be better!" thinking. Then I came home, and for a while, everything was great. Then it got time for me to get a job and a place to live. First, the job. "It's great to be home, but once I get a job, it'll be better!". Then the apartment. Then buying the apartment. Then it was the fact that I was on my own (though truth be told, that's ALWAYS been one of the main 'problems').
My point is this: You can ALWAYS find things to complain about/be unhappy with if that's what you're looking to do. As far as I can see, I have it all: A nice healthy family, a nice place to live, a great partner and a great job. Are there bits of that that I want to change? Hell yeah. Fire my boss, give my mom a chill-injection, have Fiona stop riding her stupid motorbike, and someone do my housework and repairs that are needed.
I don't know what my point is actually. I had a strop of the highest magnitude just before my last birthday. In summary it was: I'm 29 years old, still living at my damn mother's house, no house of my own, and no-one that really gives a toss about me as anything other than a sibling or friend.
Every single point of that has now changed. Have I suddenly stopped having strops or depressed periods? Hell no. But in the main, am I happy? Hell yeah. Was I happy before when I was in the States? Also, yeah. I was.
I think it's 80% what you look for. I never considered myself a half-full person, and I still don't think I am, but in the scheme of things, I've got a hell of a lot more to be grateful for than to be upset with.
Erk. I'm on a course, so I'm not sure that *any* of that has made sense.
Also, bear in mind that money REALLY doesn't make a shit of a difference. Sure it helps you be more comfortable when you're depressed, but it truly TRULY doesn't make you happy. Since coming home, my salary has been thirded. Yup - it's now 1/3 of what it was. But I only get pissed towards the end of the month when I'm in Borders and there's books/CDs/DVDs that I *need*.
Boliver
Mar 25 2003, 09:37 AM
I agree that money doesn't make you happy, but for the hoardes of people who have huge student loans or credit card debt, having the debt without the money to pay for it can feel oppressive and very restricting. It can make you feel like you're not yet an adult, and you're still "paying your dues," which, yeah, you are.
I've realized in the last couple years that a lot of my comfort has come from the little things: not being so broke all the time and looking for change for gas, having health care and dental, being able to actually save, having pets, having auto-paycheck deposit and online banking, not having to drive to work, not being paid hourly.
It feels like the personal realization that things aren't just going to "work themselves out" by the time I'm 30 hit me right out of school, and I had very few unrealistic expectations towards that. I've always been happy with myself overall, and proud of who I was, so the main obstacles to me feeling comfortable with life turned out to be the "little" things I mentioned above. My childhood experiences pushed me to be an adult emotionally, and to see, in technicolor, the deep faults of those around me, and I've tried to not discount that those could happen tome- it's helped me stay grounded.
Also, having a wonderful sweetie and being able to be happy as myself around him and my friends has helped me understand that my career doesn't make me, I make me. When I'm out from under my debt, which should be literally in the next couple years, I'll feel more ready to re-assess whether I can find a job that suits me more and makes me feel as if I'm doing something for society. I got my degree with a public service job in mind, and realized quickly that it was an unrealistic goal. Perhaps that goal will be reachable (if I still even want it then) when I'm not under the debt.
I don't want to insinuate that life's happiness comes from having all your ducks in a row, or that it's that simple for most people. At all. It's been that simple for me, though, and I think that has to do with the growing up I had to do before college, and having been my own main support group since then.
Ginni
Mar 25 2003, 10:11 AM
Oh, believe me, I'm not saying that money isn't one of the biggest issues in everyone's life, but what I *am* trying to say is that there is a certain level that everyone typically gets to, where it's very tempting to say "If I was just paid that wee bit more...", and that's just not the way it works.
I'm still in debt (though I just *finally* paid off my student loans), and my life would certainly be a little easier without it. But I'm fairly sure that I'd just look to something else to buy were I not paying off my damn movers bills/credit card/etc.
SNeaker
Mar 25 2003, 10:42 AM
Well, I'm at a different stage in my life, being only approaching 24, but I'm ridiculously happy. The only time in my life when I wasn't happy was my early teens, and really, who's happy then? I loved my friends but I didn't like them much, I wasn't attractive or willing to fool around so I was the lone single wolf among my musical-chairs-relationships group, and my more natural outgoing, outspoken, and funny personality was completely suppressed by my own insecurities leaving me feeling squelched and lonely.
That's adolescence for ya.
I snapped out of that depression (and found myself some real friends) at about age 17, and I haven't looked back since. I'm enormously blessed- with a loving family, with finally finding my "bosom friends" (we all have big bosoms) not hideous looks, no current money worries, and with the fact that everything I've ever wanted in life came incredibly easy to me (except one major one, which I'll get to in a minute.) Any problems I've ever had were completely my fault, and if anything I wormed my way out of those with barely any repercussions. My life has actually been *too* easy, as I've been spoiled by my family, friends, and G-d for pretty much my whole life. I keep waiting for the ball to drop.
I really can't discount the role my religion has played in keeping me happy. Constantly seeing the results of G-d's love for me, being taught to be happy with what I have instead of focusing on what I don't have, as well as often seeing the positive results of seemingly negative occurrences has left me almost incapable of being unhappy- how can I wallow in that kind of self-indulgence with all that I have, especially when I see the troubles other people have? This isn't to say, of course, that I never *get* unhappy, just that I can never stay unhappy for too long. I'm cool, no complaints. Well, one complaint- I wish other people would stop feeling the need to tell me how unhappy I *should* feel because my job isn't "fullfilling" in the way they think it should be, because I'm "wasting my brain," because I'm not married yet. Although on that last- I *am* starting to feel a bit lonely and the fact that I'm not married is starting to bug me just a little bit. It's not something I dwell on, but I can't pretend that I'm not worried about the future. I'm happy now, but do I fear that I'll still be in this exact place 10 years from now. Finding a guy is that one thing I mentioned that hasn't come easy to me.
As for my friends and my generation- I'm not quite sure which generation I even belong to. Most of my friends are very happy though. Two out of three of my closest friends are married with newborn babies, and in my world it's actually pretty old to just now be having the first child. (I'm pretty much a spinster at this point.) We all had our incredible single years though and took it very slow, enjoying the hell out of being young and free in the world, and both women were married a good two years before they got pregnant so we all had time to settle into the new "married" dynamic before bringing kids into the mix. Neither of them feel as though they've given up themselves or their youth because we had those years, plus we're still all pretty close.
Getting kinda rambly, sorry.
Boliver
Mar 25 2003, 10:43 AM
Oops, I posted after SNeaker.
Ginni- Oh, no, I understand you weren't saying it wasn't important, and I agree that fairly small changes in income or debt should not really have an effect on one's inner happiness. My point is that when someone's already fairly settled into that sense of self, it's the little things that can enhance satisfaction. It's all relative.
And I'm happier living not close to my relatives, thankyouverymuch.
Mirren
Mar 25 2003, 12:48 PM
SNEaker, you're 23 and people think you should be unhappy because you're not married yet? We must live in very different worlds: I got married about 18 months ago and, at 27, was considered pretty young - hardly any of my friends are married (one couple of acquaintances is getting divorced, but that's another story).
Those few of my friends who have babies are generally around 31, 32. And they're struggling with all the "giving up their youth" issues that your friends have succeeded in bypassing. I wonder what their secret is?
Edited because astonishingly I'd already forgotten how old I was when I got married ...
SNeaker
Mar 25 2003, 01:15 PM
Well I'll be *24* in a few days! ;) My uncle prays for me every day. I'm going to have to get a cat soon..
Yeah, I do live in a pretty different world. And in mine, the focus is completely on family. It's considered weird for anyone to even move out on their own before they're married, unless they're moving to another city, and committment problems are virtually unheard of. All the guys I know want to get married just as badly as the girls. We're raised with such a completely different mindset than most American (or British, or Australian) kids, it's hard to even compare. Or explain.
Pandrea
Mar 25 2003, 02:14 PM
I feel like I want to chip in, but I'm not exactly sure what I want to say. My life has changed so much in the past year that I'm actually not sure if I'm happy or not. I'm, if anything, happier at work - well, less unhappy anyway, since I'm still pretty bored, but seem to be better able to cope with that. However, it looks like my work situation is about to change shortly, in a way that's out of my control, so I'm kind of in limbo till I see if that's going to get better or worse. Then the break-up thing was so grim that I know it's changed me, but I'm not yet able to tell how. That may not necessarily be just negative changes, though. I think I basically feel like I'm in a transition period.
But these are all the big things and they don't really directly affect my day-to-day happiness or grumpiness. I find more than enough things to keep me happy on a small scale, which I think is a good sign. I think if you can do that, the fundamental things are easier to deal with. But then again, it can mean you put off doing something about them. For me, though, it's got nothing to do with age. My personality is sorta basically discontented, which does mean though that I'm willing to try new things and aim for improvement. I would say in the case of Mirren's friends, the question is whether they've always been this crotchety or is it a relatively recent thing. Because if it's the latter, then there may well be something to their problems that needs them to take action.
Ambrose's Auntie
Mar 25 2003, 06:00 PM
QUOTE
My personality is sorta basically discontented, which does mean though that I'm willing to try new things and aim for improvement.
Pandrea, this describes me as well, although the older I get, the less "glass half empty" I seem to be. I think Ginni hit the nail on the head with this:
QUOTE
My point is this: You can ALWAYS find things to complain about/be unhappy with if that's what you're looking to do.
So true. And maybe in your 20s, with the high expections we have of ourselves, and the expectations we allow others to have of us, those things to complain about or be unhappy with are near at hand. If one thing has changed for me more than anything else over the past 6 or so years, it's that I no longer care what other people expect of me. Especially my mother. And that was a massive thing for me to move past. Now that I have, I really do find it easier to find the good/happy in things.
scully
Mar 25 2003, 06:08 PM
I agree with Bol re: the fact that money can buy happiness (to a certain extent) and employers really are the ultimate suck, of late. (Although maybe it's not a recent happening, but I'm just realizing it now that I'm trying to progess in a 'career'-type way. Who knows..)
Mirren, you are in no way shallow for being happy with your life. The 'little things' are in no way little in their importance.
As a side-note (yes, I'm beginning with a side-note.), although it's healthy to be aware that other people have worse troubles than you, it can also be tremendously unhealthy to discount your own issues on that basis. Most people have lived their lives with a certain level of confort, a personal 'standard', if you will. Realizing that you're below that level can be incredibly crippling, regardless of your financial background. But that's an entirely different topic that I won't get into here. Point is, everyone's problems are important and nobody's problems are more important than someone else's (within reason, obviously. There are always exceptions. And probably many of them.)
Now about the whole 'lifemate' thing. Not too long before moving to Vancouver, I was struck rather suddenly (and inexplainably) with a most intrusive depression. It indirectly forced me to break up with my ex and move. Having been with Furie for over a year and a half, now, I've come to realize that although my ex was truly wonderful and a great first step in the world of dating, for whatever reason, I wasn't completely myself around him. There were many aspects of my personality to which he was never privy, that I didn't feel the need to share. But with my boy, now, I'm absolutely, 100% me. We're both tech geeks, which is nice, what with the ex being a somewhat old-fashioned law student. He knows about all of you guys, all of my weird feelings and insecurities, all of my obsessions and we just really click, you know? Even though everyone else doesn't know me as completely, not even my family, just having the one person with which I can just be is quite refreshing.
Point is, whether you're the solitary type (as I used to be and still am, on another level) or enjoy sharing your life with someone, it's just really stifling to not be who you truly are. I've also found that where you live can make a world of difference, which might seem like a 'no shit' reality to a lot of you, but damn. It took me twenty-three years to figure that one out.
In the end, what I've learned in the past year and a half is that absolutely nothing in your life is sure and permanent. Your ideals are no exception. Obviously it's good to have a small number of values which you, um, value and maintain for most of your life. This is what I consider to be one's core personality. But a lot of things you thought you'd never do or think will often just sneak around the bend and take a huge ol' chunk off your ass. And this can get you quite off kilter, obviously. The way I've come to deal with this phenomenon is to simply expect the unexpected. I firmly believe in very few things. That way, when life happens to me, I'm (somewhat) prepared for it and even have the peace of mind required to be courteous and offer it a nice cup of coffee. Or a steak, depending on the context and circumstances.
All in all, I'm damn happy right now. The only thing that would help would be sufficient money to de-debt myself and my family and to ship granny over here from Quebec. (Obviously I'd like more, but then you enter the realm Ginni mentioned in which you always want your neighbor's grass. Or something less nonsensical...)
Scheizen. I apologize for the novel, y'all. Mmmm. The 'art' of running on.. Consider yourselves lucky that I lopped two paragraphs off of this here behemoth.
ejg25
Mar 25 2003, 06:36 PM
Hey, don't apologize. I always enjoy it when these (exceptionally eloquent) novels come spilling out of you... because in person you're more, "Mmm! Poutine!"
I think I was holding off weighing in on this one. Basically, I agree with everything scully said. And I think, with regards to discussion earlier on, that it's important to remember that unhappiness does not automatically equal depression. Often life does actually suck. Disappointment and disillusionment are real things, as are tragedies large and small. You go on. You live. You look on the bright side and/or adopt the dispassionate attitude of my buddy Epictetus. But the suck exists. Life is a lemon and not even Meat Loaf can give you your money back.
This alternate perspective brought to you by the Devil's Advocacy Coalition, Cynics Branch.
SNeaker
Mar 25 2003, 06:47 PM
Oh I agree. I never meant to imply that it's wrong to be unhappy because other people have it worse. Feeling guilty for being either happy *or* unhappy can be crippling. I always hated it when I was upset about something and the response was to downplay my problem by saying how much worse theirs was. Grr. I just meant that, I'm often in a situation where I see how bad someone else has got it, and in that exact respect I've got it good, and it makes me thankful. It's a perspective thing. Then if some minor glitch happens, I have a hard time getting upset about it, which I consider a good thing.
Piranha
Mar 25 2003, 07:23 PM
QUOTE
As a family member of someone with clinical depression this prediction frightens the crap out of me.
Beej, as a long-term sufferer of clinical depression, this news gives me hope. I'm hoping that if the disease is getting this kind of coverage now, we might have a shot at (a) developing better treatments, and (b) neutralising the stigma that goes with, and exacerbates, mental illness, and depression in particular.
As for money, of course it can't make you happy. It is, however, often another contributing factor to depression. Let me explain: Depression is often related to perceptions of helplessness and hopelessness. If money is short, it's can be seen as one more factor over which the patient has lost control. Furthermore, if money is tight and there is an emergency - car repairs, for example - that can topple a borderline depressive into crisis. The third thing, of course, is that quality therapy is not cheap. I know a couple of years ago I was paying out just under $200 per week for therapy, and getting just under half of that back from Medicare/insurance. I was trying so hard to get treatment and get well, but the cost of the effort sent me further into debt and out of control.
Ambrose's Auntie
Mar 25 2003, 08:22 PM
Piranha, it's funny you should mention medical bills, because - well, you have to understand about my mother. She's quirky. She has odd quirks. Including stashing cash all over my home to keep it safe. Well, I finally got sick of keeping her cash safe, collected it all together and banked it today. I didn't realise it, but she had over $4000 tucked around my place. So I rang her afterwards and told her that the money was in the damn bank. She was a little agitated at first (she likes the idea of having cash on hand to pay bills) but I wore her down - I told her she could withdraw the money whenever she wanted. Then she told me that the real reason she had it was in case I ever needed help with my medical bills. Very sweet, but also very irritating.
You're right, Fish Girl. Wondering if you're going to be able to pay for your treatment because it isn't covered by Medicare or your private health fund to any adequate degree is highly stressful. I refinanced my mortgage to be able to overcome that particular fear. I like a level of financial security - it's important to my peace of mind. I guess over the last decade or so my view of what constitutes financial security has changed. It requires less money, but more understanding of what I can do with that money.
Piranha
Mar 25 2003, 08:48 PM
QUOTE
Often life does actually suck. Disappointment and disillusionment are real things, as are tragedies large and small.
Agreed,
eej, but there are two major classes of clinical depression: chronic and episodal/anecdotal. The first one is a chemical imbalance and it's with you all the time, regardless of how your life is going. The second is shorter term and is a reaction to an event or series of events. We shouldn't underestimate the emotional and mental impact of a series of shitty events. It can be every bit as debilitating as chronic depression, but often more dangerous, as a sufferer of short-term depression doesn't usually having the coping skills that chronic depressives develop over a lifetime of living with it.
ejg25
Mar 26 2003, 12:49 AM
Sure. But what I was saying was that people can be unhappy and be perfectly mentally healthy and depression-free. Unhappiness, like physical pain, is there for a reason and serves a function: it's a human warning system that something is wrong and that there's damage to the hull.
As a point of style, could we not bold my name? There are some of us — SNeaker and myself, I know — who don't care for it. Thanks.
BJC
Mar 26 2003, 01:53 AM
Happiness. Hmm.
Well, 4 and a half years ago I was as happy as I ever thought I could be. I was engaged, my parents were due to return in a couple of months from some time living overseas, I had a great job & circle of friends - life was a bunch of roses.
The life did that thing it does and everything got turned upside down. Now I'm single, my parents are divorced, Dad has a new partner and baby, I was made redudant from the great job, had an overseas adventure and returned home to literally start over again both professionally and circle of friendship wise.
Am I happy? You bloody betcha.
Sure there are y'gowe amounts of things I wish I could change; would like to be in less debt than I am, would like to be able to heal some of the hurt my Mum is still feeling, would like to have someone extra special to share my life with; but on the whole of it, I'm one happy little vegemite.
I've had some interesting adventures in my life, but I would have to say that the past 4 years have been absolutely incredible, especially the past 18 months. I've had way to many opportunites and experiences than I ever thought possible.
I started to fall into a bit of 'rut' (for want of a better word) when I returned home from the UK, missed my UK friends, found it hard to fit back into my Aussie friends life, wondered how the hell I was going to get going again, but, hey, I got over it.
Now I have an even better job, the two families thing seems to be going okay so far (it helps that one of them is half a world away) and I have made so many new friends (wuv Fugees) and have plans to see overseas Fugees.
So, at 26, I'm not where I thought I would be, but I'm pretty darn happy with where I am.
Edited to completely edit my post. I re-read it when I got home and it didn't say what I wanted it to say. It still completely doesn't, its such a hard thing to put into words.
mjforty
Mar 26 2003, 03:27 AM
This is an interesting topic. Like Piranha, I've had my battles with clinical depression. There have been periods in my life when I literally could not find the wherewithal to get out of bed. It just took too much effort. I have spent a major portion of my life beating myself up because of self-perceived flaws. To be honest, my mother never really liked me. She spent my childhood convincing me that I was a bad person and like all good children, I believed what she told me. That's a pretty hard burden to come out from under.
The odd thing is, it never kept me from having really good friends. I kept me from keeping them long-term but I've been lucky in somehow recognizing the people who would be emotionally supportive in ways that my family never could be. That probably was what got me through to my 30's when I was financially stable enough to go into long-term therapy and get ahold of who I really am.
Looking back on it, I realize that I was living this weird, sort of schizophrenic life where I could enjoy the moment I was in without being able to hold onto it in order to maintain some semblence of happiness. Of course, part of the reason was I was convinced I didn't think I deserved to be happy because, you know, I was bad.
I do think that, for women, their mid-life crisis tends to hit a decade before men's. It seems to go largely unreported but most of my female friends talk about how they took stock of their lives in their early 30's and made some major changes. It didn't necessarily include major outside changes. Sometimes the changes had to do with a shifting of how they looked at things. Sometimes they sloughed off jobs or men or geographic locations, sometimes they sloughed off ideas about proper times to be married and have children or whether to get married or have children, at all.
This may have been said in this thread already, I'm not sure where I'm getting it from but your 20's seem to be about figuring out who you are and your 30's seem to be about becoming comfortable with that person. So, Mirren, maybe your friends are finally getting a handle on who they are and realizing that their lifestyle doesn't quite fit with that person and they've not yet made the connection. One thing I do know that is a sure recipe for unhappiness is believing that you should be married (or pregnant) at a certain age. This is not the sort of thing you can put on a timetable and I've seen women make themselves miserable because they are approaching some self-imposed deadline with regards to marriage or child-bearing. That would be my only piece of advice to pass onto your friends. Tell them not to feel like they've lost something because they haven't gotten married yet. Also, if they want to be married they need to be with someone who also wants to be married. If they are with someone who doesn't want to be married, then they need to go find someone who does. There is no such thing as a soulmate. You can love more than one person deeply. Go find a person to love deeply who wants the same things you want.
Me? I have to say that I'm probably in the best time of my life. I am financially comfortable. I have great friends. I've finally made peace with my family in that I can keep an emotional distance from their problems while still caring for them. Some of this was hard work. Some of it just happened. I'm grateful for what I have and hopeful that I can achieve more. But if I don't achieve more, what I have is damn good and I'm not gonna bitch about having to do without.
Boliver
Mar 26 2003, 11:02 AM
QUOTE
I've finally made peace with my family in that I can keep an emotional distance from their problems while still caring for them.
For people who had emotional burdens and major obstacles growing up, I think this is a huge step in becoming satisfied with life. To be able to maintain family relationships while understanding that family members' individual problems are not your own leads to a wonderful independence and freedom.
I had a boss in college who I care for very much as a friend. He's an older, married man with two children, and he's a wonderfully caring and affectionate person. He's battled depression for years, and I remember one thing he said to me before being diagnosed and that was that "happiness" was overrated and fleeting, but "satisfaction" or "contentment" was where it's at. If people strive for happiness, which is at the very top of the scale, they are looking for a goal that's unreachable most of the time. Sure, happiness does come, and when it does it's savored, but contentment means we're not yearning for more.
In the years following undergrad, I found that to be true for myself because I'm consistently very even with my emotions. I don't have the positive and negative swings that many of the people around me seem to have, and while I'm happy at not having the lows, I also rarely experience the highs of something like "happiness." I feel wonderfully content with just the daily ins and outs of my life, and that seems just right.
Also, what mjforty said about soulmates. If soulmates exist for me, that means I'm not wholly in control of who I choose to love and whether they suit me, and I refuse to believe that. I think the success of a 'ship rests on the ability of those two people to manage themselves into accurate communication and clear expectations and appreciations.
Also, add me to the non-bolding list, please. I've never liked it, and it's not like we have a bajillion posters here and we have to sift through hundreds of posts just to see who reponded to us.
Mirren
Mar 26 2003, 11:45 AM
You know, one of the many things this thread has made me realise is that I’m not at all bothered about turning 30 in November. I was quite freaked on my 29th birthday, but shortly afterwards I resolved to look on the positive side and spend this year as a kind of trial run for the kind of maturity I associate with being 30something. I don’t mean dressing smartly, listening to opera, being perfectly coiffed or doing DIY every weekend—but being in control of stuff, procrastinating less, being more thoughtful. Though the only difference that this has actually had in my life so far is that (for example) I now fix lightbulbs straight away instead of cursing the broken lightbulb every night for a fortnight before getting round to replace it. Which is only a little difference (albeit a useful one). But maybe I’m making some of the progress Piranha, AA and mj have all referred to.
But I now see that what I thought was pre-30 anxiety was really just externally induced. Why should I be worried about getting a year older when my life is improving all the time? (And since I still have teenage skin I really don’t need to worry about wrinkles …)
Unlike Boliver I’m definitely an up-and-down person; my brother, though, lives his entire life in a steady state of contentedness so I can understand what that’s like. I’d love to draw a little graph here, but I visualise my state of happiness as averaging high with regular, almost daily bursts of ecstatic happiness and also regularish but minor dips of depression, which blow over very quickly, generally in under an hour (and are mostly provoked by pettiness over the washing up).
scully
Mar 26 2003, 05:25 PM
(Hee.)
QUOTE
You can love more than one person deeply.
Hell, yeah.
QUOTE
I think the success of a 'ship rests on the ability of those two people to manage themselves into accurate communication and clear expectations and appreciations.
Boy, have I learned that recently. Last summer, I kinda had an acute emotional breakdown one day wherein I brought up something to Furie that I thought we hadn't properly discussed. We did, apologizes were given and the issue is no longer a burden between us. I was amazed at how simply talking honestly and emotionally about something can be so therapeutic.
Then, a little later that season, we had a major blow-up over a stupid thing that happened at work. It made us realize that the incident wasn't the culprit, but rather it was the way we both view things and communicate about them. We had a few more fights throughout the year about that very issue and now we both feel that we've vastly improved the communication element in our relationship. Sure, we'll have disagreements now and then, but it doesn't take us long to spot where it all went wrong and to apologize.
This is such progress for me, what with being the type of person who bottles up a lot. During our four years together, I think my ex and I had
one argument. And we were both drunk. At the time, I thought it was wonderful that we never fought, but now I'm thinking it might have aired out some minor-becoming-major issues that prevented me from being totally myself around him.. Oh, well.
In conclusion: Communication good. Me happy.
QUOTE
I've finally made peace with my family in that I can keep an emotional distance from their problems while still caring for them.
See, this is the one aspect that really gives me trouble with my family. I am the only one who loves everyone. Everyone else has petty (and not so petty) hostilities towards one or more members of my clan. And I'm the one they all bitch to about the others. But never about the problems they have with me, obviously. That would be too logical. So I have to hear about all the faults this one person has and what they've done to piss off the other. And if I were the meddling kind, I could so easily just clear the air between them (well, not for
every issue, natch). But something's holding me back. Not sure why, 'cause maybe then they'd SHUT THE FUCK UP about it. Ahem. Still, I like to think of myself (perhaps falsely) as being good at keeping confidences, being someone you can trust when divulging your innermost thoughts. So I feel that forcing a one-on-one between two 'guilty' parties would be a betrayal of that trust. For whatever reason. Now that I'm 'thinking out loud' this way, I'm starting to question my methods..
All in all, though, that's one of the few stress factors in my life. And it's pretty minor, when it comes down to it.
Pandrea
Apr 1 2003, 08:40 AM
QUOTE
And since I still have teenage skin I really don’t need to worry about wrinkles …
You certainly don't Mirren, you look about 23.
QUOTE
There is no such thing as a soulmate. You can love more than one person deeply. Go find a person to love deeply who wants the same things you want.
I think, I
hope this is true. I hope so.
mjforty
Apr 1 2003, 07:59 PM
It's true, Pandrea. You just hang in there, girl.
Ambrose's Auntie
Apr 1 2003, 10:09 PM
QUOTE
QUOTE
There is no such thing as a soulmate. You can love more than one person deeply. Go find a person to love deeply who wants the same things you want.
I think, I hope this is true. I hope so.
I'm with mjforty (gosh, how unusual is that - not). I think that we are so bombarded with the notion of romantic love and soulmates and finding the perfect one for us that we can overlook the many people we love deeply. Whether they be family or friends - many of us are surrounded by love that we don't give its true value, because we are so hung up on waiting for "the one" - waiting for the fireworks and the passion and all those other fabulous things.
Of course, I'm just waiting for Viggo Mortensen to acknowledge that I am his one true love. But I'll be happy with the love of family and friends until he comes to his senses.
Boliver
Apr 2 2003, 12:30 AM
I know many people say that we're bombarded like that, but I don't know from where. I never felt those ideas being pressed into me through family, TV, movies, or books, so I never felt the instinct to look for, or hold out for, The One. I always figured The One was who you made it to be.
Assuming we are bombarded with the idea of soulmates and romantic notions of love, where is the source? I know what the sources are for the crushing societal pressure to be thin, or at least try to, but I get the feeling that the notions of love we're introduced to are more nebulous.
Ambrose's Auntie
Apr 2 2003, 01:36 AM
Boliver, I can't speak for others, but in my case it begins with family, and as I've grown older and remained unattached many of my married/attached friends and work colleagues have become fairly vocal with the whole "finding the right one for you" thing. I find it amazing how many people think they're entitled to an opinion about a single woman of a certain age's love life.
I also went to an all-girls Catholic school in the 1970s and very early 1980s, where the focus was very much on getting a job that you could balance well with a family (teaching and nursing being the careers that were pushed at us), because we'd all find the right one. And woe betide us if he was the wrong one, because divorce was not an option (being the good Catholic girls that we were). I was one of the "selfish" ones who didn't follow the nominated path - there were a few of us who were described that way by some of the nuns.
Anyway, I guess the point I was making earlier is that I don't believe there is one soulmate. I believe that any number of people can play an important part in nurturing your heart.
Vanishing Point
Apr 2 2003, 01:44 AM
I don't know if we're exactly bombarded by it but popular culture is full of the notions of romantic love, be it in music, books or film.
That's all I had to say really. I'm happy. As a whole I'm never dreadfully unhappy. Obviously day to day events can make me happier or unhappier but I have a pretty stable equilibrium of happiness.
I don't believe in soulmates. That being said I've really only had one significant relationship, with Mrs VP, who I started going out with when I was 21 nearly 11 years ago. So I consider myself incredibly lucky that I found, as mj put it, a person to love deeply who wants the same things that I want at the first attempt.
My happiness is very tied in with Mrs VP. I can no longer imagine life without her and I know that if anything were to ever come along and significantly disturb our relationship then that equilibrium of happiness I was talking about would be well and truly broken. It could be rebuilt of course but it would be a very rocky ride.
ejg25
Apr 2 2003, 01:53 AM
All I can say is that the notion of soulmates goes back. And I mean way back. To Plato.
I've always loved his cosmology for the birth of humanity and love. He said that in the beginning people had two heads, four limbs, and four legs. There were three genders: one was half man and half woman, one was all woman, and the other was all man. The gods split them all in half, and now we spend our lives trying to rejoin with the missing other. I personally find some validity in that, and thus in the concept of soulmates. It explains as much as anything does the ineffable.
Mirren
Apr 2 2003, 05:43 AM
This is all interesting, because until I read eej’s post I didn’t really think that anyone believed in soulmates (though I think I get that you like it as a metaphor rather than a concept by which to live your life).
To me, the One True Love is one of those clichés that appears in art a lot, but has no bearing on real life. If you look at famous couples from (western and classical) art—Romeo and Juliet, Odysseus and Penelope, Tristan and Isolde, Hero and Leander—in most cases dysfunctional hardly begins to describe their relationships.
For a start, the One True Love thing is just too statistically improbable. And to me it speaks of an immature, inward-looking and excluding relationship—and I don’t think it’s that healthy to have all of your life invested in one person. Sometimes I suspect couples are more enamoured of the concept of their all-consuming relationship than they are with each other: particularly when I look back at my friends’ attitudes to relationships when we were in our late teens and early twenties.
Depictions of couples as “soulmates” aren’t, I think, as invidious as say the media’s portrayals of female bodies, but they might contribute to a general air of dissatisfaction and angst.
Like VP, I’ve only had one significant relationship, and I don’t deny (or regret) that a huge amount of my happiness is tied up in it. But I still don't believe in soulmates.
QUOTE
you look about 23
Ok,
now I’m happy.
mjforty
Apr 2 2003, 06:54 AM
I think the romantic notion of "the one" starts with the fairy tales that are read to us as a child and are perpetuated through books and entertainment sources about "tragic" love affairs. You know the ones, where the boy is all wrong for her but she loooooves him. Having listened to many a girlfriend refuse to break up with a physically or emotionally abusive boyfriend for exactly this reason ("But, I love him."), I have always resented these sorts of stories because it feeds the belief that love conquers all. Frankly, sometimes you fall in love with the wrong person. Just because you're in love with a person doesn't mean you have to stay in love with a person. This is an idea that is not put forth enough, in my opinion. Maybe I'll start a series of anti-Harlequin romances, where the woman is involved in a destructive relationship and, after a series of epiphanies, gets out while the getting out is still feasible.
I also think the concept of a soulmate is more a female notion than a male notion. I certainly have never had a man talk to me about soulmates but have heard plenty of women discuss the notion. I remember being stunned upon realizing that some of my friends believed in the concept of "happily ever after" as if it was some magical thing that happened when you found your soulmate. I do think they myth is perpetuated somewhat in those teen magazines that we all probably read as young girls. Some women just never let go of the fantasy, I guess.
I completely reject the idea of a soulmate and am a little baffled as to why someone would want such a concept to exist. The idea that there is just one person out there who is perfect for you in all the billions of people on the planet is a depressing one to me. I don't think that you can make the perfect partner out of just anyone but I do think that there is more than one person who can really make you happy and fulfill you. But I also think that it requires you to be open and honest with yourself and your partner and that it can sometimes be hard work. Every happily married couple I know who has been together over 15 years will admit that there was a point when things almost came to a breaking point. I think the breaking point didn't happen because of a combination of hard work, stubbornness and luck. However, they came out the other end of the crisis with a better understanding of their partner and an ability to appreciate them even more.
SNeaker
Apr 2 2003, 06:59 AM
eej, that's Plato? I thought it was just Hedwig and the Angry Inch.
jenelope
Apr 2 2003, 09:30 AM
I used to be such a little romantic when I was younger. I always wanted that grand, passionate love and used to fall "madly in love" with boys at the drop of a hat. Even when I was a little older, I actually fell in love a couple of times and it never worked out. Now I've found that the older I get, the more I want companionship, respect, trust, affection and sexual compatability. If I can have that, I don't care if I never experience that kind of in love again.
I answered one of those memes that's always flying around LiveJournal a few months ago. One of the questions was "Would you rather be rich or find true love?" I was the only person who picked being rich. I'm happy enough without romantic love.
Boliver
Apr 2 2003, 09:55 AM
QUOTE
My happiness is very tied in with Mrs VP. I can no longer imagine life without her and I know that if anything were to ever come along and significantly disturb our relationship then that equilibrium of happiness I was talking about would be well and truly broken. It could be rebuilt of course but it would be a very rocky ride.
I'm at this place now. I know, though, that it's a place I walked myself to, and it was wholly voluntary. In the beginning we communicated and thought so differently that sometimes simple discussions turned into long ones, getting into the details of how and why things were said, and what they meant. Over years, our communication styles started to merge, so while I retain my strong personality, and he retains his quiet competence, we each speak a language and style to each other that is tested and effective.
The reason I reject the idea of soulmates goes back to the reason that I reject the idea of fate- I know I have my future in my hands, and that includes my future with someone. We alone are responsible for making something work, and only the test of time will show how well we work together. That's a large part of why we took our time getting married (6.5 years). One thing that goes along with my rejection of the "soulmates" crap is that what happens if you find your "soulmate," and it doesn't work out? What if your soulmate cheats on you? What if they beat the crap out of you? Does that mean that they weren't really truly for ever and ever with a cherry on top your soulmate, and you need to start over, looking for him/her? Or does that experience jar soulmate-wishers out of their fictional reverie?
I know that a large part of my happiness, or satisfaction, is due to him and the life that we have made together, but I also know that if he were hit by a bus, or left me, or we separated, I would be fine with recovery time. I don't want that to happen, because after all the work we put in, we seem to really mesh well, and I'm very happy with his presence and effect on my life (and not just the "idea" of him), but if that shifted, and he became the kind of person who didn't respect me, or if I became that person, it wouldn't be healthy to stay together. That's how I know "soulmates" don't exist- because people are constantly changing and growing, and there's no way to specifically foresee the growth ahead of us. To assume that all the changes we'll go through as adults will cement our relationships more (including friendships) seems the essence of folly.
Also, there's the whole thing about pheromones in a box.
Edited because jenelope reminded me about something. When my dad was in rehab for sex addiction, there was a "family week" that some of us attended to learn more about the addiction. So, there are many different forms of sex addiction: there's addiction to the physical act, addiction to the excitement of stuff like exposure or thrill-sex, and addiction to "love." I was introduced to the idea of "limerance," that wonderful, exciting, floating feeling that happens in the very beginning of a relationship, when just thinking about the person makes our heart rates increase. It's a wonderful time, but fleeting, and some people flit from person to person, wanting that feeling, and losing interest once it's gone and the newness has worn off. I think that the teen mags and the romantic movies and novels push this limerance as "love," and many younger people misjudge the permanence of their "feelings" when it feels good.
ejg25
Apr 2 2003, 12:22 PM
SNeaker, it is in fact Plato. Why, does it really figure in
Hedwig and the Angry Inch? I've never seen that.
QUOTE
This is all interesting, because until I read eej’s post I didn’t really think that anyone believed in soulmates (though I think I get that you like it as a metaphor rather than a concept by which to live your life).
No, I'd say that I actually believe in it. Just because a stupid show with James Van Der Beek has done bad things in the last seven years with this age-old concept, doesn't mean it isn't valid. I don't know how you'd live your life by it, or on the contrary how you'd live your life by the opposite concept.
I think there's a reason that we keep seeing the portrayal of romantic love within a soulmates framework throughout history: because the authors and artists have experienced it that way. Love is not a business contract, it's not closing on a mortgage, with set rules and steps for achieving a goal. If it were, you could throw together any two people who matched each other's desired characteristics and they'd fall in love. If it were, you'd never discover that the person you love is the last person you thought you'd want. It's a great deal more unexplainable and esoteric than that. There is something about love that defies reason, or rather is wholly apart from reason, a-rational.
There's a great deal of anecdotal evidence for people experiencing soulmateyness, and with love anecdotal evidence is all we have. We've all known couples who say, "I knew I'd marry him the minute I saw him" or, at the end of decades together, "I can't imagine what my life would have been without him." We have "Romeo & Juliet." We have folkloric sayings like "There's a lid for every pot." Whence do all these sentiments arise if not from actual experiences of it?
Not everyone believes this. And some believe it but don't experience it. But, to steal from the great Mike Brady, when you're in it, there it is. I don't think it bears cluttering up with questions and worries about the practical ramifications, because that would be irrelevant and beside the point. It would be trying to apply the banal to the sublime, and there's no dissecting the sublime.
SNeaker
Apr 2 2003, 02:08 PM
Lyrics to
Origin of Love from Hedwig.
Not dissimilar from the Jewish idea that Adam and Eve started off as one androgynous being and then were separated. The point made there (the lesson they had to learn) is that it's important to be an individual *and* share your life with others. Just being one entity is no good. There's also a mystical idea that 40 days before conception (or some say at conception, 40 days before the fetus becomes viable or something) a "divine voice" anounces that this soul will pair with the soul of so-and-so. The term for it is "bashert." It used to be relayed to give people hope that there truly is someone out there for them, but unfortunately lately it's been twisted to allow people to stop taking proactive roles in their own lives. "G-d will send me my soulmate, I don't have to look for him/her." Most leaders and educators have been trying to *seriously* discourage the focus on the soulmate idea.
I'm sort of iffy on the idea, same as I am with fate. I believe it exists, but I think it's something that's very *very* dangerous to dwell on. It's less about destiny than about that one person out there who is your perfect match- obviously this is not a person who would abuse you or whatever. The romantic aspect is nice I guess, but I've seen too many people harping on the idea to their own detriment. "I really like this guy and he's perfect for me but what if he isn't my *bashert!"* To which I say "Grow up." I'm too pragmatic for it, I think, which is probably why mysticism has never appealed to me- not that I don't believe in it, I surely do, but I don't put an enormous amount of stock in it, you know?
Boy, I'm all about the tangents lately.
Ginni
Apr 2 2003, 02:16 PM
*whispers to ejg*
I believe in it...
ejg25
Apr 2 2003, 02:55 PM
That's a nice song, SNeaker. Apparently Hedwig is quite the literate fellow. The story comes from Plato's
Symposium, which can be read
here. Plato puts the words in the mouth of Aristophanes, as follows. It's long, but I think worth reading. I've added paragraph divisions, since Plato? Not big on posting etiquette.
QUOTE
Aristophanes professed to open another vein of discourse; he had a mind to praise Love in another way, unlike that either of Pausanias or Eryximachus. Mankind, he said, judging by their neglect of him, have never, as I think, at all understood the power of Love. For if they had understood him they would surely have built noble temples and altars, and offered solemn sacrifices in his honour; but this is not done, and most certainly ought to be done: since of all the gods he is the best friend of men, the helper and the healer of the ills which are the great impediment to the happiness of the race. I will try to describe his power to you, and you shall teach the rest of the world what I am teaching you.
In the first place, let me treat of the nature of man and what has happened to it; for the original human nature was not like the present, but different. The sexes were not two as they are now, but originally three in number; there was man, woman, and the union of the two, having a name corresponding to this double nature, which had once a real existence, but is now lost, and the word 'Androgynous' is only preserved as a term of reproach. In the second place, the primeval man was round, his back and sides forming a circle; and he had four hands and four feet, one head with two faces, looking opposite ways, set on a round neck and precisely alike; also four ears, two privy members, and the remainder to correspond. He could walk upright as men now do, backwards or forwards as he pleased, and he could also roll over and over at a great pace, turning on his four hands and four feet, eight in all, like tumblers going over and over with their legs in the air; this was when he wanted to run fast. Now the sexes were three, and such as I have described them; because the sun, moon, and earth are three; and the man was originally the child of the sun, the woman of the earth, and the man-woman of the moon, which is made up of sun and earth, and they were all round and moved round and round like their parents. Terrible was their might and strength, and the thoughts of their hearts were great, and they made an attack upon the gods; of them is told the tale of Otys and Ephialtes who, as Homer says, dared to scale heaven, and would have laid hands upon the gods. Doubt reigned in the celestial councils. Should they kill them and annihilate the race with thunderbolts, as they had done the giants, then there would be an end of the sacrifices and worship which men offered to them; but, on the other hand, the gods could not suffer their insolence to be unrestrained. At last, after a good deal of reflection, Zeus discovered a way. He said: 'Methinks I have a plan which will humble their pride and improve their manners; men shall continue to exist, but I will cut them in two and then they will be diminished in strength and increased in numbers; this will have the advantage of making them more profitable to us. They shall walk upright on two legs, and if they continue insolent and will not be quiet, I will split them again and they shall hop about on a single leg.' He spoke and cut men in two, like a sorb-apple which is halved for pickling, or as you might divide an egg with a hair; and as he cut them one after another, he bade Apollo give the face and the half of the neck a turn in order that the man might contemplate the section of himself: he would thus learn a lesson of humility. Apollo was also bidden to heal their wounds and compose their forms. So he gave a turn to the face and pulled the skin from the sides all over that which in our language is called the belly, like the purses which draw in, and he made one mouth at the centre, which he fastened in a knot (the same which is called the navel); he also moulded the breast and took out most of the wrinkles, much as a shoemaker might smooth leather upon a last; he left a few, however, in the region of the belly and navel, as a memorial of the primeval state.
After the division the two parts of man, each desiring his other half, came together, and throwing their arms about one another, entwined in mutual embraces, longing to grow into one, they were on the point of dying from hunger and self-neglect, because they did not like to do anything apart; and when one of the halves died and the other survived, the survivor sought another mate, man or woman as we call them,--being the sections of entire men or women,--and clung to that. They were being destroyed, when Zeus in pity of them invented a new plan: he turned the parts of generation round to the front, for this had not been always their position, and they sowed the seed no longer as hitherto like grasshoppers in the ground, but in one another; and after the transposition the male generated in the female in order that by the mutual embraces of man and woman they might breed, and the race might continue; or if man came to man they might be satisfied, and rest, and go their ways to the business of life: so ancient is the desire of one another which is implanted in us, reuniting our original nature, making one of two, and healing the state of man.
Each of us when separated, having one side only, like a flat fish, is but the indenture of a man, and he is always looking for his other half. Men who are a section of that double nature which was once called Androgynous are lovers of women; adulterers are generally of this breed, and also adulterous women who lust after men: the women who are a section of the woman do not care for men, but have female attachments; the female companions are of this sort. But they who are a section of the male follow the male, and while they are young, being slices of the original man, they hang about men and embrace them, and they are themselves the best of boys and youths, because they have the most manly nature. Some indeed assert that they are shameless, but this is not true; for they do not act thus from any want of shame, but because they are valiant and manly, and have a manly countenance, and they embrace that which is like them. And these when they grow up become our statesmen, and these only, which is a great proof of the truth of what I am saving. When they reach manhood they are lovers of youth, and are not naturally inclined to marry or beget children,--if at all, they do so only in obedience to the law; but they are satisfied if they may be allowed to live with one another unwedded; and such a nature is prone to love and ready to return love, always embracing that which is akin to him. And when one of them meets with his other half, the actual half of himself, whether he be a lover of youth or a lover of another sort, the pair are lost in an amazement of love and friendship and intimacy, and one will not be out of the other's sight, as I may say, even for a moment: these are the people who pass their whole lives together; yet they could not explain what they desire of one another. For the intense yearning which each of them has towards the other does not appear to be the desire of lover's intercourse, but of something else which the soul of either evidently desires and cannot tell, and of which she has only a dark and doubtful presentiment. Suppose Hephaestus, with his instruments, to come to the pair who are lying side by side and to say to them, 'What do you people want of one another?' they would be unable to explain.
And suppose further, that when he saw their perplexity he said: 'Do you desire to be wholly one; always day and night to be in one another's company? for if this is what you desire, I am ready to melt you into one and let you grow together, so that being two you shall become one, and while you live live a common life as if you were a single man, and after your death in the world below still be one departed soul instead of two--I ask whether this is what you lovingly desire, and whether you are satisfied to attain this?'--there is not a man of them who when he heard the proposal would deny or would not acknowledge that this meeting and melting into one another, this becoming one instead of two, was the very expression of his ancient need. And the reason is that human nature was originally one and we were a whole, and the desire and pursuit of the whole is called love. There was a time, I say, when we were one, but now because of the wickedness of mankind God has dispersed us, as the Arcadians were dispersed into villages by the Lacedaemonians. And if we are not obedient to the gods, there is a danger that we shall be split up again and go about in basso-relievo, like the profile figures having only half a nose which are sculptured on monuments, and that we shall be like tallies. Wherefore let us exhort all men to piety, that we may avoid evil, and obtain the good, of which Love is to us the lord and minister; and let no one oppose him--he is the enemy of the gods who opposes him. For if we are friends of the God and at peace with him we shall find our own true loves, which rarely happens in this world at present. I am serious, and therefore I must beg Eryximachus not to make fun or to find any allusion in what I am saying to Pausanias and Agathon, who, as I suspect, are both of the manly nature, and belong to the class which I have been describing. But my words have a wider application--they include men and women everywhere; and I believe that if our loves were perfectly accomplished, and each one returning to his primeval nature had his original true love, then our race would be happy. And if this would be best of all, the best in the next degree and under present circumstances must be the nearest approach to such an union; and that will be the attainment of a congenial love. Wherefore, if we would praise him who has given to us the benefit, we must praise the god Love, who is our greatest benefactor, both leading us in this life back to our own nature, and giving us high hopes for the future, for he promises that if we are pious, he will restore us to our original state, and heal us and make us happy and blessed.
Note the part where he says gay men are the best of all and the only ones suited to be in government.
Nalian
Apr 2 2003, 07:38 PM
Everytime I see this topic on the main page Tori Amos sings "happiness is a warm gun" in my head.
I don't have anything signifigant to add. I think soulmates are probably real, I just don't think they're necessarily the storybook/movie definition that we put on them.
scully
Apr 2 2003, 07:45 PM
Hrm. This is a weird subject for me. For the most part, I'm a rather pragmatic person myself. The original concept of the soulmate, at its purest form, just seems highly impractical to me. One person out there, somewhere.. You're obviously not pre-destined to meet this person, since many people haven't. Or so I assume, seeing as I don't have the power to know how everyone has lived their lives. In that sense, I agree with mjforty. It's depressing.
QUOTE
"G-d will send me my soulmate, I don't have to look for him/her."
But while I don't agree that you should be completely passive and wait for this procedure in which someone hands you your soulmate, nor do I believe that love should be an active quest. That'll just lead to frustration and heartache. The best decision I ever made in my life was to live it for myself. Once you're fairly happy with yourself, the people with whom you choose to interact will quite possibly turn into something more than friends or acquaintances. It might happen just like it might not, but you can't dwell on it. So, while I'm never content to let fate decide things for me, I'm also not forcing any issues. If I meet someone and we get along really well, so be it. I'll go with the flow for as long as the flow will have me.
Having said that, I'm not really sure what to think of Furie and I. The events and circumstances which brought us together amuse me. Sometimes, when I'm hit with a wave of gush and Spring fever strikes its hardest, it feels like it was meant to happen. Other times, when 'strong, independant, practical-minded' scully takes over, I'm all "Eh. Whatever. It just happened, for whatever reason. That's cool." While I won't go into the details of why we're very happy, as it'll both bore you and embarrass me, I will say this: I've never felt this comfortable with anyone in my life (and I don't mean this in the boring sense). And while 'absence makes the heart grow fonder' was never very true for me, it is in this case. I enjoy having someone who can read my mind (and whose thoughts I can predict in turn). That's not to say that I don't put any effort into our relationship (or that it isn't quite likely we can read each other's minds only because we spend so much time together), but in the end, it's much easier to devote oneself to the 'work' involved when there's already that innate connection thingy happening. The latter being a phenomenon in which I believe one hundred percent (and that, as I mention below, is quite unusual for me.)
I dunno...
I think my overall opinion on soulmates is very similar to my beliefs regarding most things in life: There is no absolute truth to which I can devote myself, either way, so I instead choose to live by a pleasant (for me) middle-ground. Don't go through life believing in your soulmate to the exclusion of all else, but if one day you happen to meet someone and things just.. click.. go with it. Enjoy the intense feeling of having such strong, inexplicable feelings for someone. It's probably gonna be an interesting ride, at any rate. Things might not be this way forever, you have to accept that, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't just shut up and jump (ahem) in the meantime.
In the end, I think Blaise Pascal said it best: "L'amour a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point."