Ambrose's Auntie
Jul 11 2004, 09:34 PM
Last week, some of the Australian Fugees had a discussion about debt, and what you are happy going into debt for, and what you think constitutes debt, which got me thinking about how people deal with owing money. Our views were quite diverse, and I wondered what others might think.
In my case, I don't live easily with debt. My credit cards have to be paid off each month or I get twitchy. I had some huge medical bills to pay off over the past few months, and I put them on my credit cards until I could refinance my mortgage to pay them, and that stressed me out considerably. I've never borrowed money for holidays or other "frivolous" (I can hear my mother in my head here) things, and I'm not sure that I could. Having said that, I have a massive mortgage, but I don't think of that as being real debt, so I have no problem with it.
So, what is your comfort level when it comes to being in debt?
Piranha
Jul 11 2004, 11:28 PM
I'm not comfortable with debt, and that stems from having shopaholic tendencies that bordered on psychosis. I don't handle money well. I have sweated bullets since then to get out of debt and to repair my personal credit rating, and I am quite literally scared to go back into debt. I will probably go back into debt within the next couple of years for a new (or less old) car, but have no concept of owning a mortgage.
I have only one credit card with a minute limit, and I'm okay with that.
NatCat
Jul 11 2004, 11:38 PM
Debt doesn't bother me, it seems to be a natural part of life these days. I've got a personal loan and a couple of credit cards. I periodically pay off the credit cards and then reward myself by spending on them all over again. Most of the time I don't even think about them and I certainly don't stress over them. Managability is the key, if I've gone a little crazy with Mr Mastercard one month I attempt to exercise some self control the next.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to be debt free and perhaps one day I will be, but until then I try to be sensible with my budget and relax about the whole debt thing.
Claudia
Jul 12 2004, 12:02 AM
I once got into a nasty situation with debt, where I maxxed out my credit card and then lost my job, started working as a temp, and not long after, depression attacked. I was living on my savings and totally ignoring my mounting debts for a couple years there. I was close to having to move in with with my parents, and did borrow money from them to pay rent.
Now, having dug out of that situation, I am determined not to let it happen again. It's easy for me to say, because I don't really have many expenses. I live in a relatively inexpensive roommate situation. I eat out, I buy books and DVDs, occasionally I spend a few hundred dollars on plane tickets. I don't have a car.
These days, I use online bill pay to pay my credit card quickly so I rarely pay a monthly fee. What didn't occur to me until very recently is that I can spend more than my credit limit each month by paying my bill more often than monthly. Watch out, Deep Discount DVDs. (But really, that seldom comes up. The only reason it did is that I hate clothes shopping, so when I finally did go I bought a half-dozen outfits at once. Layaway + online bill pay meant I went back in two days to get the ones I hadn't been able to walk away with immediately.)
I wouldn't mind getting a mortgage, because that's secured debt. That's totally different, in my mind.
Mirren
Jul 12 2004, 05:23 AM
I’m lucky that, apart from my mortgage, I’ve not been in debt since around the end of my first year of work. I left university with what I thought at the time was a substantial overdraft and a loan from my parents, but I budgeted hard to clear it within about 10 months.
I’m not comfortable owing money—though like Claudia I see mortgages as different, partly because there’s simply no other way for me to own a home. I always pay off my credit card bill every month. Obviously I’m about to give up my job and put myself in a position where debt becomes a bit more likely, but I’ve been saving for years and am prepared to really tighten my belt in order not to get into the red. I dislike shopping and am a bit of a skinflint, so that helps.
Vanishing Point
Jul 12 2004, 08:28 AM
I'm in the same camp as Mirren and Claudia in that I rationalise my mortgage as different from other debt. I hate debt, I hate the thought of debt, and other than my mortgage I've never been in debt (unless you count HECS fees). My credit card automatically gets payed off from my savings account every month so I don't have to think about it.
It's strange that I can manage to rationalise the mortgage as somehow different from my other money. The amount is huge and if I thought about it the same way as I do my other money I'd go crazy.
Boliver
Jul 12 2004, 09:08 AM
Well, at least in America, the interest on student loans and mortgagaes can be tax deductions, so that puts those kinds of "positive" debts into a different level of owing than credit card debt. I don't think it's a matter of rationalizing mortgages as good debt; in our societies, it IS good debt. It's positive in that it make us home owners and indicates our responsability to paying bills on time, and for many people, having a family and making babies, which society sees as a good thing.
I see credit card debt as something born of greed and peoples' need to own things, and not save, but, more recently in our society, a necessary evil; many lenders (see abore re: positive debt) won't lend without a credit rating, and many things we buy can't be conveniently bought without a credit card: anything online, airline tickets, rental cars, etc.
The other reason credit cards have become a necessary evil is that the American middle class gets smaller, with costs closing the gap to income, and with only the richest Americans getting the benefits of a tax cut, and with a larger disparity between the rich and the middle class.
College is hella expensive, and once you pay for that, by yourself, getting into the world without using debt (which our society or parents, for the most part, never taught us to use responsibly) is increasinly unrealistic.
I racked up a good lot of debt when I was in college and grad school, and spent the next 6 or 7 years clawing my way out, totally on my own. I don't spilt my finances with my hubby, so it was a solo flight, and the end felt the better for it. Now that I make a good living, and can save some, I pay off any cards every few months, and spend mostly only out of my checking, having a monthly budget, and everything computerized, with online bill paying and EFT. I think I can appreciate being out of debt a lot more having once been swamped in it.
Now I see debt as a positive thing: something that allows be to have a house and an education. But it's also dangerous, if the feeling that I "need" a material thing outwieghts my ability to pay for it up front. So, I don't buy impulsively, and all purchases that are larger and have to go on a card are thought about quite a bit beforehand.
Pandrea
Jul 12 2004, 10:41 AM
I've always been terrified of debt - I'm not sure why, because it's never really been an issue. I don't have a mortgage and only use my credit card on holiday or for online orders and pay everything off in full immediately. I had to take out a Graduate Development Loan from the bank for my second degree, which was a really big deal for me, but I managed to pay it back within about 18 months. Otherwise, I've never needed a loan, because I don't tend to want to buy that much. However, I'm really munching into my savings this year, which is not good.
ejg25
Jul 12 2004, 12:58 PM
I'm another one. Zero debt is okay with me. I can't stand it. At the beginning I was disturbed by my college loan, but I had to learn to live with it as it wasn't going anywhere for five years. Now I'm debt free.
I love my credit cards, but I use them differently than some. I use them for every purchase, no matter how small (hello, frequent flier miles), but I've always treated them as American Express cards and pay them off each month. I find them very helpful in knowing how much I'm spending and where. I never pay interest... the few times I've had to carry a balance, I've transferred it over to another card with one of those 0 percent interest offers.
The few times I've had to carry credit card debt or borrow money, I felt very stressed. I tightened the belt, not going out, cutting back on groceries, so I could get it paid back as soon as possible. Because until I do I'm always thinking about it, worrying about it.
This is part of the reason I don't get a newer car. I could, but I feel it's kind of silly to assume debt for a metal box on wheels.
Veda
Jul 12 2004, 04:15 PM
I don't really see mortgages/car loans as debt because they're more or less liquid. Unless you're in a bad situation what you owe is less than or equal what the house/car is worth.
I haven't really made up my mind how I feel about debt. I have some credit card debt racked up from college when I didn't have much of an income. I'm about at the point where what I have in savings = what I have in debt (not counting my car loan). So theoretically I could be debt free if I wanted to, but I'd rather have that cusion in savings. For the most part I pay off all my current purchases as I go, and slowly chip away at the old debt. I guess I'm okay with debt as long as it's not too out of control.
Vanishing Point
Jul 12 2004, 07:35 PM
Interestingly despite the fact that I'm no fan of debt I love credit cards. They are so amazingly convenient. Also, the way our mortgage is structure (savings account offset against the mortgage) means that we pay for absolutely everything on credit card. That way we save interest on the loan by not taking money out of the savings account as often. And yet credit card debt has never been an issue. I guess we are just self-disciplined enough not to spend more than we know we can afford.
Mirren
Jul 13 2004, 03:37 AM
I'd be terrified of having one of those all-in-one mortgage and current accounts. Aside from the horror of checking your balance and finding you're £100,000 overdrawn, I'd always worry that I was taking too much out of the account and not paying off the mortgage. I keep a pretty close eye on all my accounts (and our joint account) but I don't think I could maintain the necessary level of scrutiny.
I make most of my big purchases - everything but groceries, travel cards and so on - on my visa card. It gives me 0.5% cash back so, since I always pay it off every month, I like to think that the bank is paying me to use it.
Vanishing Point
Jul 13 2004, 06:54 AM
Oh, we can't overdraw on ours. It's just a savings account that is linked to the mortgage which automatically has the monthly payment (interest + principal) transferred to the mortgage. The advantage is that whatever money we have in the account comes off the principal when they calculate the interest which is done daily.
Nalian
Jul 13 2004, 08:45 AM
I have a personal loan and a credit card. The card I charge and pay down on a fairly regular basis, as all my online orders, etc go to it. I also have a tendency to use it rather than my debit card because I get Jeep points. The points always suck you in.
My savings is much higher than the amount of debt I owe, so I don't really worry about it much. I had charged up a bit of debt when Veda was in school as well since mine was the only income we really had at the time, but thats what the loan was used for to pay off. I've been paying it at an accellerated rate, and if I keep going like I have it'll be paid off very shortly.
I don't like debt but I definitely think its a necessary evil. I'm no tready to take the plunge on a house debt though. While I see it as different from credit card debt - I'm not ready to see that many 0's for an amount I owe yet. While my car is a debt I don't view it as much of one, because I coud sell it and owe nothing if it became necessary.
kmm56
Jul 13 2004, 10:48 AM
I think I've intentionally not paid off my credit card in full... maybe twice. The idea of carrying over debt from month to month Does Not Appeal. (Well, neither does the idea of paying interest.) I've never had Big Debt, because my parents, blessings upon them, paid for my schooling and, er, used the leftovers at the end to buy me my car. So I'm very lucky. I do hope to buy a house in the next few years, though, so that'll be a biggie.
Boliver
Jul 13 2004, 10:15 PM
When I think of debt, I don't think of putting everything you ever buy on a card so you can get frequent flier miles as debt; I only think of carrying over what you owe as debt.
Mmmm, frequent flier miles. I have oodles, and haven't yet used them. I keep waiting, thinking someone will die and the tickets will be really expensive at the last minute, but people have been near death, or have died, and tickets were cheap. So, there I sit on my miles. Some day, I will save a bajillion dollars on a ticket, and stick my tongue out at my husband, who uses his up for whatever tickets he needs to buy.
Nalian
Jul 15 2004, 10:29 AM
I float a balance pretty frequently, which is better for your credit rating when you have a young account, like I do. Apparently this is because it shows you can responsibly pay your bills on time when you have a balance, or something like that. My fico score is excellent but it won't get any higher than it currently is until I've had credit for longer - my foray into credit started with my car when I was 19.
Joasia
Jul 15 2004, 11:07 PM
Since coming back from overseas, I've had a bit of a debt on my credit card from expences I'd made there. The plan had been to pay it all off when I got back with the savings I still had. What ended up happening was that a family member needed to borrow $3500 and so the debt wasn't paid off. The money I'm owed will go towards my plane ticket for my US/Mexico trip next year and to paying off the c/card. For the moment, I pay off a little over the minimum required amount each month and use the card in emergencies etc.
Owing the money I do bothers me a little but I'm on top of it so it doesn't paralyse me. APart from that, I only have my uni HECS debt, which is unaviodable.
Claudia
Jul 16 2004, 02:30 PM
Nal, it's not so much better for your credit card rating, as better for the credit card company. They like to keep on people who actually pay some interest.
Nalian
Jul 16 2004, 09:31 PM
Actually I spoke with a financial advisor about it - according to him better for your rating. Your credit score grows into the positive faster when you float a balance when you're starting out, than someone who pays it off every month. Once you have an established rating, it doesn't matter as much.
Boliver
Jul 17 2004, 11:33 AM
Nal, that's what my mortgage guy said, too.
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