This here would be the designated Spoiler Topic. Which I will never see the inside of again. I think most of us are spoiler-free, but we're supportive of alternative lifestyles, so we provide you a place to play...

So I'll start you off: Isn't it just crazee how Gunn turns out to be Angel's long lost great-great-great-nephew? Also, Darla's baby turns out to be mine.

So I posted this on MBTV, but get a load of these images:
http://www.randomimage.com/silly_shit/

Kind of ew.

I haven't followed this link, 'cause I'm so good. But, here it is for your spoiler whorage. I subscribe to the JossBtVS Yahoo group, and according to the poster who sent this link, this article contains spoilers for the Feb. 4th episode.

<a href="http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2002-01/17/13.00.tvAngel" target="_blank">http://www.scifi.com/scifiwi.... Feb. 4

Hmm.  Well that is interesting.  I haven't really kept up with any Angel spoilers so I haven't ready anything about the episodes before this one, but it seems a little out of place for the season.  On the bright side it sounds baby-free...

Heh.

Leoff's wildfeed for "Sleep Tight" is up.

Can I just saw a BIG W.T.F?  And Oh.My.God.

Some nice new spoilers from Wanda.  Take em with a grain of salt if you want, but they sound pretty solid.



I think I like the "depends on if (or rather, where) the show returns" bit the best.  Fingers crossed for UPN!!!

Make of this picture from "Forgiving" what you will.

Am I like the only person interested in Angel spoilers around here?

Anyway, here is the lastest batch of episode descriptions.


3.17 Forgiving: Angel (David Boreanaz) is a man out for revenge to get back at Wesley (Alexis Denisof) for kidnapping Connor and turning him over to their enemies. While Fred (Amy Acker) and Gunn (J. August Richards) try to reason with him, Angel conjures dark magic and risks ripping right through the fabric of reality to find his lost son. Turi Meyer directed the episode written by Jeffrey Bell.

3.18 Double or Nothing: Cordelia (Charisma Carpenter) and Groo (Mark Lutz) come back to L.A. after Cordelia recieved a vision of Angel(David Boreanaz), only to become the next pawn in Lilah's (Stephanie Romanov) plan to bring forth Angelus. Angel must momentarily set aside his quest for his son to save both Cordelia and Groo, but doing so might cost him that which is the most fragile. His soul.

Lilah(Stephanie Romanov) decides to take advantage of Angel's weakened condition and hires a soul-stealer (Guest Star Jason Carter) to capture Angel's soul.

3.19 The Price: For every action, there is a consequence. Wesley (Alexis Denisof) must deal with the consequences of his betrayal as the Fang Gang continues in their quest to find Connor. Cordelia (Charisma Carpenter) must deal with her long dormant feelings for Angel (David Boreanaz) as the ordeal that they went through when Angel rescued her strains her relationship with Groo (Mark Lutz).  


They all sound pretty darn interesting to me, but the Angel turning to dark magic is getting a little too close to some other show we watch sometimes.

Some pics from Double or Nothing.

Is it just me and my "I've had 5 glasses of champagne" eyes, or does the demon in the third picture in the top row look a lot like Pylean!Vamp!Angel???

Not really a spoiler so much as the debunking of a rumor, but apparently Charisma will be returning to Angel next season, and Joss thinks we are all very silly for ever believing otherwise, even though Doyle died and Giles went away and Joss made me very sad by insulting Boy Meets World in this article.

Oooooo, juicy Angel spoilers.

I don't quite understand why spoilers for the end of the series would be out already. Plus, Faith v Angelus just sounds too good to be true. Would it be wrong to hope Faith won?

Hmmm, sounds interesting:

Just in case you missed the spoiler in the Buffy thread - Faith's back!

For 5 eps of Buffy and 3 of Angel.

I can't help but wonder if that says anything about ME's plans for after season 7, assuming SMG leaves. "Faith the Vampire Slayer" is probably the only incarnation I'd actually watch without having to drag myself to the couch kicking and screaming.

Word, Boliver.

Whole bunch of new Angel Spoilers.

If you can, register for the Yahoo groups to see the Season 4 cast pictures.

Lovely black and white add for the season premiere and the new photo of Welsey......well, I had to pick myself up off the floor. Humna-humna.

Pretty Pictures.

Angelus returns.

Very interesting spoiler I read today.

Willow will be visiting the AI gang and helping out the Angelus situation. Willow and Fred will be attracted to each other. Faith returns to Sunnydale with Willow.

Hhhmmm. Is this the first real signs of the "if the shows are ending we will allow crossover" stuff the UPN execs have ben talking about?? Hhhmmmm.

Not looking, not looking, so I hope this hasn't been posted before. SFX says that Sean Astin - Sam!! - has directed an upcoming episode of Angel. There's an odd sort of quote where he describes the experience as like the guy in The Green Mile sucking out the cancer: "I had to suck all the disparate feelings from all these different people, then get rid of it and allow them to do their work." Is it me, or does that not sound like a happy set? It adds that the story features Angelus "heavily". I'd unfortunately already been spoiled for that bit, but I'm annoyed on everyone else's behalf.

I read that this was more of just a meeting of the minds. They get along well and talk sciency stuff - no attraction.

I got accidentally spoiled by this article yesterday, so I thought I'd share the fruit of the spoils. I was pulled in by the promise of a comment about Glenn Quinn's death, and then figured I could tell by the questions which answers would be spoilery. As it turns out, I could not.

And I'm not reading anything in here, so maybe this is old news. Angel fighting Angelus. How they gonna do that? And Angel having David Cassidy hair... I thought Connor already had that covered? Maybe they can bond over the best way to get shag to flip.

Awww, some very adorable pictures from Aly's Angel episode.

This was just posted over at Fametracker. I normally avoid Angel spoilers but I guess casting information is not considered spoilers over there. Anyways:


Let me be the first to say it: Blech! I loathe this bit of information and it almost has me hoping Angel doesn't get renewed. Do we really need two vampires with souls on one show? And what is this inexplicable love affair that ME has with this character? It continued to promote it to the detriment of Buffy and now it's apparently going to cross-over to pollute Angel. Once again: Blech!

From what I've been reading on a few boards not many people are for the idea of Spike joining the A.I. team, but anything that gets Angel renewed is worth it IMHO.

Some Angel spoilers from Sci Fi Gal posted over there...



The Lindsay/Angel conversation went...

Lindsey holds up the scroll: "I see that what happened here tonight was foretold - that doesn't bode well for you. - I see that you are either the one with the power - or you're powerless."
Angel: "Uh-huh. You see what I'm gonna do to you if you don't give me that scroll?"
Lindsey: "You need the words of Anatole to cure your friend. She is your connection to the Powers That Be. And since it's foretold that we sever all your connections (holds the scroll into the flames burning in the urn beside him) well..."

My guess, when the "real" Cordy returns she will be visionless, therefore severing Angel's connections with TPTB. Which could be a good thing, if I've read the latest wildfeed correctly - because, aren't they evil?

Big wopping YAY to Andy returning!! He is so definately my favourite Buffyverse character.

Okay okay, I'm not looking at anything else here. But Giles and Spike joining Angel? Blimey! This could really be interesting, although it could also be problematic. I mean, more Giles is definitely, obviously, of the good. I can't quite see how or why he'd end up in the Angel crew - it doesn't seem to be a natural fit, somehow - but there are intriguing possibilities. Chiefly, I think, the interaction between him and Wesley. Hmm, Giles and NewImprovedWesley in the same scenes - almost too exciting. I may choke. The thing is, though, I don't really see much between him and Angel or him and Cordelia. I guess he'd like Fred well enough and there might be comedy between him and Gunn of the Diff'rent Strokes variety (oof), but out of the Angel-specific characters, funnily enough I think the most potential for something sparking (not like that) would be with Lorne: they could be the new Odd Couple.

But the fact that I can't imagine how they could do this doesn't put me off - I couldn't see how they could bring in Wesley, either, and that worked, so I'm very ready to be surprised. And, in the absence of Ripper, I'm happy for more Giles especially if it means more exploring of his character, perhaps a little darker edge as we tend to get on Angel. However, it might just mean occasional or guest appearances, but that's still interesting. Taking the whole thing with a cellarfull of salt, though.

I'm less fussed about Spike joining the show. Despite James Marsters' abilities, I don't think that there's anything more to do with this character and I don't see how the Angel team can change that. It's true that he and Angel sparked in the past but I think it would be really dull and get old quick if they just sparred all the time. Plus, if he takes over the show to the extent he's taken over Buffy, then it means less time for everyone else including the characters I do like. Also, if it is true then it means my oft-touted notion that BTVS will end with Spike sacrificing himself to save Buffy is all off. And I was so attached to it.

Well, if the latest batch of internet rumours are to be believed, Series 4 ends with Angel & the team joining a re-established Wolfram and Hart, you can sort of then see how Giles & Spike would fit in.

Giles as a leader and Spike as a Lindsay-type person.



In case people are staying spoiler free for Buffy:

Spoiler (Highlight to Read):

Pandrea, you are right. But he doesn't die. I don't know how that works. Not unless Spike gets the Shanshu, but I highly doubt it.

Bah.

Spoiler (Highlight to Read):

It doesn't count if it doesn't stick.

The idea of a re-established W&H only good is ... I dunno, interesting. In practice, would it be much different than Angel Investigations? I suppose there would be lots of other staff around, offices, etc. Hmm. You know what would be kinda cool ... if Gunn actually decided he wanted to be a lawyer. I'm not joking! However, why on earth did they off Lilah if they were bringing back W&H - wouldn't she have been ideal as the representative of the old firm who had to deal with its new mission? Unless she's resurrected, or Holland Manners is, or Lindsay comes back (which would be fine, but I doubt they're bringing yet another guy into the cast), then they won't really be able to have that element, which seems like a chance wasted.

And while of course Giles would be perfectly capable of running a W&H type operation, I think I'd really rather see him reconstitute and reform the Watchers Council. Unless he did that sort of in association with them and made guest appearances ... complicated.

That's pretty much what happens. If current spoilers are to be believed of course.

Feh. While I would be delighted to see Lilah again, enough already of the bringing back from the dead. Deaths should count, dammit! Plus, it would probably mean they couldn't return to the tortured romance of her and Wesley, if she was all deaded.

Latest from Kristin

Not quite official news, but its Herc, so I'm taking it as fairly certain.

Woo with just a whole heap of Hoo!!!!!

This isn't spoilery for the US, but I'm not sure where else to put it as it's based on spoilers I've heard about Cordy's baby and how it may be fathered by the Beast instead. Today I was thinking of something else entirely and into my head popped "the father will kill the son" and I suddenly thought of a certain original Star Trek episode and went "No ... not the son ... the sun." 'Cause the Beast put it out, ie killed it. Is that too ridiculously stupid? Am I just letting the cheese wear me?

Final episode pictures. About half way down the page. Lilah looks DAMN good - for a corpse. I don't know about the shirt though. And Angel's hair has gone curly. Okay.

On the other board, someone asked if the guy standing to the right of Lilah in the first picture looks like Holden Webster from "Conversations with Dead People". I agreed it could be, and then asked if the tall guy standing behind Lilah is Spock.

Okay, it takes a cataclysmic event to knock me off the spoiler-free wagon, and we got one. I need to know if Kartheiser is signed on for next season, and I need to know it now so I don't go unhinged. I don't want to go through a whole summer with sour barfy feelings. Tell me it's only temporary, and I'm fine, no harm no foul.

Pandrea! What are you doing in here? Out, out.

Edited: I've now read back through the whole topic (a first), and I feel like I'm covered in a layer of chicken fat. Slightly spoiled myself for Buffy. Surprising how early you guys know stuff. And argh, the only word about Connor so far seems to be that he's gone. Amend what I said: I don't need you to tell me if he's coming back, I need you to tell me that he's coming back. Lie if necessary. I'm already busy suppressing three whole seasons of Buffy; if I had to start suppressing Angel too, well, there's only so much denial one brain can sustain without a system crash.

So I take it you guys have heard the casting spoilers for next year: the show's going to be renewed, but with James Marsters added to the cast and with Charisma Carpenter probably not returning as a regular. There's no word about Vincent Kartheiser, but I suspect that's because they assume it's off the table. I get the feeling that Mutant Enemy is baffled and surprised by half the fans thinking he's coming back... the stage directions in the shooting script of "Home" end not very comfortingly with "The limo pulls away. Forever."

Anyway, crap. Talk about your wheels coming off the apple cart. One minute you're sailing high above the road, wind in your hair, apple cart perfectly maintained — the next minute you're lying face-down in a muddy ditch. Who in the? How? How did that happen in one week?

The worst of it for me is the fake memories/Connor invalidation debacle, and the loss of Kartheiser. Then obviously comes the addition of Spike (how much is that gonna suck?). Then the BRIGHT look of next year, complete with All Wolfram & Hart All The Time. Bringing up the rear is the loss of Charisma Carpenter — though it makes me sad and though they could easily have had snappy real Cordelia come back, it's not really a surprise since she's been MIA for nearly a year and a half now, and for the same reason the impact of this on the show would feel minimal.

But arrgh. Instead of Angel, next year tune in to Spike. Or, Five Mind-Wiped Idiots In Search of a Tan.

*gnash* I hadn't, but I'm not surprised. Oh dear. This is just dreadful.

But you're generally fond of Spike, no?

Actually, I generally am myself, but I am very tired of him, and his souled incarnation gives me hives. Also, even were I madly in love with him, there's no way he can work on this show, given his character's clash with what Angel is. And then there's the "I'm James Marsters I Suck Up Every Second Of The Show I'm On" factor.

There's even a rumor going around that the WB made Marsters' addition to the show a condition of renewal. That actually kind of encourages me, because if Team Angel didn't want to add him, they may use him as little as they have to and then phase him out.

What you said there. I love James Marsters' performance. I'm a bit icked at the groupie tone some of his fans take, but that's neither here nor there. But I think his presence helped wreak thematic havok on Buffy, even as I enjoyed most of the individual moments and would gladly delve more into his character.

I think they're probably intending to add Spike so they can have the snark they've missed since Classic Cordy faded away. But what's the excuse for his presence in LA? It's either Buffy-related, which will set a maudlin or tiresome tone between him and Angel, or it's not, in which case it's probably ridiculously forced. If this is a "suits" idea rather than an ME idea, then you're right, some hope lives.

But I will miss Cordy and Connor and I can't believe they want us to accept the memory-mangling as a "resolution" of any sort. The only reasonable thing I can conclude is that they want the show to be all about Angel and how the Connor sacrifice affects him. And, well, it's not all about Angel. What's rich about this show is the ensemble, not the star.

I know... from time to time during the last half season I would stop and notice that the lead barely figured in the show and the plots. And it was wonderful, not because I don't like Angel or Boreanaz, but because that was what worked for the show and the plot at the time. Some characters come to the fore, and others naturally fall to the background, to live again another day.

I don't think they need Spike for snark. Lorne provides snark. Lilah (who it seems likely will be around now and then) provides her own brand of snark. And so, for that matter, did Connor (sob! o Connor my Connor!), in his own "you all suck" kind of way. I don't have any illusions — they're bringing James Marsters on for the ratings and the viewership.

And I wonder if it will backfire. So far all I've read around the Internet is people hating the decision... which is not what I would have expected.

I've just read elsewhere someone's suggestion that Spike could be made useful in a storyline where he became Connor's surrogate father and anti-Angel yoda. This idea makes me want to go somewhere and hit myself in the head with a pot.

In fact, there are few possibilities for Spike that don't make me want to hit myself in the head with a pot. Spike hates Angel? Spike romances Fred? Spike gets between Gunn and Wesley? Spike speaks to someone? Bam, bam, bam, bam.

Bottom line, I don't want Spike anywhere near my people.

You know, someday there's going to be an actually-apocalyptic apocalypse, and you know what will still be standing? The Bronze, the cockroaches, and Spike.

I mean, damn. Of all the characters... I mean, they could've brought Willow over. I like Willow. AH was wonderful and relaxed and Willowy when she was on Angel this year. Or, hell, choose a Potential, or... something. Anything. Just... I'm so very, very tired of Spike.

So after a day to absorb the news, and a good night's sleep I feel...even more miserable than I did yesterday.

G-d! If I were more self-centered I'd think that ME was purposely setting out do do everything that I don't want in retaliation for all the harsh criticism I've doled out the past few years.

What? I said "if."

The Spike news is just...the best thing about Buffy ending was never having to see him again. I'd be free, free like a bird! No more posturing, scenery chewing, helmet head. No more watching Buffy moon over her attempted rapist. No more every conversation turning into the Great Spike Debate.

Get out of my life, Spike!

Then there's the new setup, which I hate, (Shiny new toys? Possibly supernatural Gunn? And I give a shit because why? What happened to a ragtag group of good but flawed people fighting evil against all odds?) the possible non-return of Connor, and oh, there's Cordelia.

You know, the reason I hated C/A was because of how badly it ruined both characters, especially Cordelia. Getting rid of her? Not my idea of a fucking solution.

It kills me, it absolutely kills me that not only have the writers basically made Cordelia irrelevant to the show, but they've effectively assassinated her to such a degree that not only do people not miss her, (if they even remember that she exists) but they're relieved to see her go. This is a character who has been around since the beginning. If she had to exit the show, or take a smaller role, it should be felt by the audience. It should be *regretted.* We should at least be able to have the scrap of looking back on her fondly and wishing she were here. (As per Season 6 Giles.) But no. The writers took the time in Season 4 to right all of the wrongs of Season 3 *except* for Cordelia, and now apparently they'll have little time to do it in Season 5, if at all. Oh sure, they covered their asses over St. Cordy and the Higher Being nonsense, but they didn't fix Cordelia, the character, the person. Instead they just kept heaping more and more abuse on her with ode after ode to her tits, and the creepiest Oedipal storyline this side of the Meditteranean. The character has become a laughingstock and they've completely written her out of the other characters' lives. Cordelia? Cordelia who?

Of all of the character assassinations on either show, the one done to Cordelia has been the most infuriatingly disrespectful. So I can't imagine why I don't have faith that the Miracle Workers over on the Angel side of the ME pond will do a good job bringing Spike into the show. Because it's not like they've ever been guilty of crapping all over a beloved character.

If you'll excuse me, I need to curl up in a corner and have myself a good cry.

I'm sorry you're all sad, SNeaker. Things may look better in the fall, though. I mean, look how deleriously happy most of us were with Angel a mere two weeks ago. This could be the beginning of the end, or it could just be a burp in the karmic fabric.

In all fairness, I don't think the writers destroyed Cordelia so much as Charisma Carpenter did. Maybe a 40-60 operation. And her leaving has, I suspect, everything to do with her. They kept her on the show and in the credits for a year and a half after she effectively left, in my opinion. That struggle to hang on to Cordelia is indicative of the fact that they wanted to keep her.

It did occur to me that if Cordelia had lapsed into a five-episode-long coma after "Expecting," the characters (and the writers) would have done everything they could to bring her back again. They would have moved heaven and earth. It would have loomed heavy over every moment. The fact that it didn't this time is sad, but also understandable given how the character had evolved and faded to the background.

I don't think the Connor/Cordelia relationship was disrespectful. I liked it, and I believed it. It was her trotting around in a black lace tablecloth afterward that irked me, and her being an insufferable walking piece of treacle for years before.



Heh. True. Sad and true.

I can only think of a few minimally painful uses for Spike. One is for him to lose his soul and go back to being an evil regular. The other relates to the Buffy spoiler I've only dimly gathered,

Spoiler (Highlight to Read):

that Spike gets trapped in the Hellmouth like a Mastery cork. I thought maybe that, while trapped there, safely miles away from our gang, he would serve as their new conduit to the remaining Powers That Be

.

Hey, SNeaker, there's something in this mildly spoilery article that seems designed to 1) Make you happy, and 2) Prove that they're intentionally trying to cultivate the SNeaker demographic in 2003/4.

If I wasn't in such a sad, pissy mood I'd call that a bright spot but I'm so jaded right now my only response is "Great, so I'll get my hopes up and then they'll ruin him too.'

Honestly, that thought had flitted through my mind too. But Christian Kane is such a strong and disciplined actor that they would never be able to... hmm, better try another tack. Actually, it's fairly sincere: this may all be heading in weird directions, but Angel hasn't been in the position of overwhelming outstanding actors with mediocre material. Wesley still shines as bright as ever, and Angel and Lilah and Fred have both become ever more compelling and nuanced and wonderful with each passing episode. Gunn and Lorne are still holding pretty fast, too. Faith was amazingly true to herself, as perfectly recaptured as though she'd been trapped in amber for two years. If anything, the show's prodded its characters to new heights.